Should Martial Artists read Philosophy

[martin2]

Hi All,

just saw yesterday a great film: The Twilight Samurai

There was a great dialogue. The samurai asked his little daughter to learn the Confucius.

So she asked: "If I learn to do needlework, someday I can make kimonos. But what good will book learning ever do to me?"

Samurai: "Well, it probably won't ever be as useful as needlework. But you know ... Book learning gives you power. The power to think. However the world might change, if you have the power to think, you'll always survive somehow. That's true for boys and girls."

One can't express my feeling about the question if martial artists should read Philosophy better.

Martin

[David Craik]

I'm all for being well-read but I don't see that martial artists have any more intrinsic need to read philosophy than anyone else.

If Confucius, I suppose that it would afford them a window into the society from whence their art came..as it would for a practicioner of any Asian art form. Or a historian, for that matter.

[mzee101]

For the typical samurai, however, to have knowledge only was to be a fool. Book learning alone was compared to a bad -smelling vegetable that must be boiled and boiled before it can be used. Too little learning and too much learning were both unpleasant. The samurai thought that knowledge really becomes knowledge only when it is made a part of the mind of the learner and shows in his character. Intellect itself was therefore considered inferior to ethical emotion. Man and the universe both were thought to be spiritual and ethical.

I read this on my kyokushin club website this is from an extract explaining the meaning of bushido if you are interested in read further @ http://homepage2.nifty.com/africa/bushido.htm
I think this sums it for me basically too much or too little reading is bad ...

[Jeff C.]

How does anyone know what samurai as a group, in general, thought about education? However, I have seen some "modern" warrior primers state such thoughts. Daidoji Yuzan, author of "Budoshoshinshu" certainly thought this, but I think it would be erroneous to assume that was a common way of thinking for all samurai. Are there other historical references that indicate that was a common belief among the warrior caste?

Jeff Cook

[AllanJGAnderson]

I think as a martial artist, I try to be constantly improving myself. Physically and mentally. Sometimes this means reading philosophy, but not only Eastern Confucion works, this includes the philosophers of the enlightenment, and Greek classics.
I don't do it out of some pompous self-righteous sense of obligation, I just think being well read, makes a better me. And regardless of ones own motivations (or lack their of), in my martial arts experience, I've learned to always have a mind to better myself.


EDIT: I should add, improving my mental game isn't limited to reading non-fiction. I recently began re-visiting Algebra, as well as my personal hobby of studying Mandarin Chinese.

[mzee101]

How does anyone know what samurai as a group, in general, thought about education? However, I have seen some "modern" warrior primers state such thoughts. Daidoji Yuzan, author of "Budoshoshinshu" certainly thought this, but I think it would be erroneous to assume that was a common way of thinking for all samurai. Are there other historical references that indicate that was a common belief among the warrior caste?

Jeff Cook

True this may be too much of a generalization or an aussmption made by many historians but surely there would be some sort of basis for this idea think about this many samurai wrote death poems a sign that they had some sort of literary comprehension which is a suggestion that they must have been well read yet being of the warrior class it would make no sense to be educated If one wishes to be very very well read why doesnt he become an academic rather than be a warrior?

[David Craik]

I think it is good to remember that we are talking about a span of over six centuries and many clans and stations...to think that 'samurai' beliefs were monolithic is rather a stretch. A bushi who has grown old in battle and knows how to make a concoction to rid his kabuto of lice is likely to think a little differently than a 'flower samurai' of the Tokugawa court who enjoys composing poems about the moon and the surf of Aki. If you compare the writings of Hojo Soun and Kato Kiyomasa you will find them very different in opinion. And many of the academics were samurai - or monks (many of which were - you guessed it - retired samurai).

If we're talking about warriors in constant warfare, then yes, there can be such a thing as too much 'book-learnin' if it is pursued to the detriment of one's skill in battle. Just like if you're a lawyer and spend all of your time learning to play a banjo and none of it preparing for cases. But it should remembered that 'samurai' were also the ruling class, not just dudes running around in armor. To administrate effectively and liaison with others of authority it was essential to be as learned and cultured as possible yourself. You hardly want an oaf running things - just look at the politicians we have today.

I actually have a writing from a late-era samurai that addresses this - I'd have to look for it. Basically it says that 'just because the bushi of old eschewed knowledge that didn't relate directly to fighting doesn't mean the young samurai (of that later era) should. Because their survival depended on the sword and spear, they can be forgiven at not being able to compose linked verse or study Chinese classics. We do not have this excuse today, and should be able to at least compose a passable poem and be familiar with worldly things and culture. (paraphrased)'

Of course, all of this has very little to do with most 'martial artists' today. You are hopefully not confronted with people who want to hack you up all the time (unless your profession requires you to face this danger), and if so you should move. The overwhelming majority of 'martial artists' are not professional warriors. They are hobbyists, regardless of how singlemindedly or faithfully they pursue that hobby. If they never throw another reverse punch, swing a bokken, or perform an Osoto-gari again nothing will change. Any intellectual personal betterment you pursue has very little to do with whether you do a 'martial art' or not - one can play golf instead and still be bettered just as much. You can substitute the phrase 'martial artist' with 'flower arranger', 'middle manager', 'athlete' or 'human being' in Allan's post and it makes no less sense. I also don't understand how the phrase 'in my martial arts experience' has anything to do with any of it.

Without philosophy one is merely learning to punch and kick. But in all honesty, the punching and kicking has absolutely nothing to do with the ethos you have chosen to live by. Yet again, fantasy. We summon 'what the samurai said' when in reality feudal Japan is about as far removed from us as Venus.

[Mano]

I think it would be absolutely hilarious if reading philosophy would become en vogue among martial artists. I'm not sure which one I'd rather see, Machida fighting Evans or Machida reading an article like this and explaining its contents in public.

Perhaps it would be possible to arrange something similar to chess-boxing? A round of MMA, bogu or something else, coupled with a presentation on such topics such as "Wittgenstein and Body Language: Is Kicking Ass a Language Game?", "Can Thomas Aquinas' Theory of Just War be Applied to Contemporary Self Defense Situations?", or "Does Schopenhauer's Conception of Art Apply to Martial Arts?" I'd love to see that. The intellectual integrity and rigour of the young would soar to heights never seen before.

[Jeff C.]

Jeff Cook

[AllanJGAnderson]

Perhaps it would be possible to arrange something similar to chess-boxing?

Such a shame that chess boxing never made it to ESPN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing

[David Craik]

It would have been awesome to watch Tyson bite the little knob off the top of the bishop.

[martin2]

Hi all,

I just read my first post and got this thought:

A lot of people say, a fighter will not get better by philosophy ... my post was not about that, or?

The samurai said and I translate know into martial arts:

Philosophy may not be as useful as martial arts techniques and wgives you the power to think. So if the world changes one will always survive.

Still a good argument I think.

For example, one is the top fighter in martial arts, but in a serious accident one loses the ability to fight, what now? Best is to be prepared and be able to change.

Or one is attacked by being stabed. MArtial arts is no insurence that one will survive, may be one try also the power to rhink to avoid the situation. No stab - no risk - sorry no hero - but heroes die young anyway.

Just some small thoughts

Martin2

[Jeff C.]

Martin, welcome to Budoseek!

Please pay just a little more attention to spelling and grammar; I'm having a hard time discerning the meaning of what you wrote.

Tactical/strategic thought, combative creativity, and survival mindset are practical, pragmatic matters; the study of philosophy can mostly be an esoteric pursuit. Matters of philosophy can be important to us from an intellectual/spiritual level "because they radically inform our understanding of just who we are and of precisely how we fit into the world that we inhabit." http://www.unomaha.edu/philosophy/NaturePhil.htm

This has little to do with how to keep Jose from gutting you with a six-inch blade while his bangers hold you down under gunpoint. This has little to do with how to enter and clear a building full of hostiles; I seriously doubt that a troop will be considering the words of Descartes or Aristotle while stacked at the door behind the breach team.

I've read plenty of philosophy. The echoing words of Plato have never resonated in my head while confronted with an extreme survival situation. While preparing for those extreme survival situations, I have the choice of spending my time improving my individual and team combat skills, or reading a book/sitting in on a lecture of Zen. You can bet I chose to spend my time on combat skills, as have most SUCCESSFUL warriors throughout time.

The earnest study of Zen CAN result in a warrior who has less fear of death, which has some combative practicality. However, I can achieve the same result through combative training; the philosophy of Zen manifests itself at those extreme moments. The philosophy is realized and owned when you are in mortal fear of your life yet persevere and survive. In fact, there are a couple of thoughts on how to practice and gain a fundamental understanding of Zen - some think the student should sit quietly and process inwardly. Others feel the practice and understanding of Zen is much more valuable and more immediate when it is realized through the practice of DOING SOMETHING other than sitting around studying Zen! Ah, the paradox of Zen shows itself again!

Jeff Cook

[SteyrAUG]

Every intelligent individual should read.

Especially a martial artist.

[SteyrAUG]

This has little to do with how to keep Jose from gutting you with a six-inch blade while his bangers hold you down under gunpoint. This has little to do with how to enter and clear a building full of hostiles; I seriously doubt that a troop will be considering the words of Descartes or Aristotle while stacked at the door behind the breach team.

No, but a strategic mind does have a great deal to do with those circumstances. And you don't get a strategic mind from push ups. And while philosophy isn't a direct "how to" means to a solution, it is a means to the ability to arrive at a solution, especially when the solution isn't obvious.

[rockstream]

I think it would be absolutely hilarious if reading philosophy would become en vogue among martial artists. ....
topics such as "Wittgenstein and Body Language: Is Kicking Ass a Language Game?",
..... The intellectual integrity and rigour of the young would soar to heights never seen before.

At the written test for some black belts ranking of some martial arts, a certain level of philosophical knowledge or understanding is required to pass, even though I am not sure it could be called a real philosophical proposition like that of Ludwig Wittgenstein.

In the Eastern culture, the term philosophy is a little differently understood among people from the Western people. It sounds like a very high academic practice for very few chosen scholars.

In the Asian culture, the term Tao(道), the way, might be easier to carry the equivalent meaning of philosophy of the Occidental world, I think. And then, the concept becomes a very usual and familiar criterion of every day living of all sorts of people. Only it differs at the level of depth.

There are three different callings for the martial system. Martial Technique(武術), Martial Art(武藝) and Martial Tao(武道). The ultimate goal of each category is different from others as the goal of as a technician, an artist and a seeker is different among them.

Once I read an article about Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo and the first man who adopted the term Tao first and named his Jujitsu (Ju technique) as Judo (Ju Tao). You could infer the name and the history of Judo.

And when the term Tao is used, it encompasses cultures, religions, ideas, politics, economies, studies, medicine, entertainments, etc.

ALLAN
I think as a martial artist, I try to be constantly improving myself. Physically and mentally... not only Eastern Confucion works, this includes the philosophers of the enlightenment, and Greek classics.
..., I just think being well read, makes a better me. And regardless of ones own motivations (or lack their of), in my martial arts experience, I've learned to always have a mind to better myself.

Great!

[Aldiel]

An important component of martial arts training is awareness, awareness of your immediate surroundings, but also of the world around you. Personally, I dislike some budo traditions. They can often be outdated or ripe for misuse in a divergent culture. Reading is a great way to develop a personal sense of budo. A student who starts his training by reading philosophy books is a student I know will go far. Martial arts are not all about fighting. Reading about philosophy will not further ones physical skills, but to say you should limit reading is to be fearful of a lucid mind.