Crossfit

[jwinch2]

I think that most professionals dont like CrossFit because they dont like Glassman and dont like the competition of his commercial program.

Guys with one gym or even NO commercial gym like Ross and Jones are the pretty much the same candybar in different wrappers.

It seems like people say "Ross is OK", while his claim to fame is the "do it yourself" garage workout and a combination of internet/video/book programs. So its OK to "place my trust" in his program and go to my garage and have at it, while it's not OK to go to a CrossFit gym and place my trust in someone there? I think CrossFits success and growing popularity is why it draws fire while Ross and Jones (who left CrossFit and started his own program that...well pretty much is still crossfit) seem to get a pass.

I can't speak for others but that is not accurate as far as my own opinions. As I mentioned, I don't know that much about ross or the other program you mentioned. What I have seen convinces me that ross is more focused on proper lifting technique than what I have seen at crossfit. What he does from a programming standpoint, as I mentioned earlier, I have no way of knowing.

Furthermore, I have no commercial stake in the success or failure of any commercial fitness program. I make no more or less money as a professor if crossfit does good things or if they do not. In short, I have no dog in this fight. My interests are in knowing what works and educating future fitness professionals so that they do the right thing for their clients.

[Jonathan Randall]

Personally, I dont need specialized training. Im not interested solely in body composition, and Im not looking for sport specific training. I need to be able to jump out of my car, chase a bad guy down (perhaps jumping some fences in between) and then take him down and cuff him. All with the additional weight of gear and vest. When I was on the Tac Team it was all of that X2 with the additional gear.

I found that CrossFit made all of that easier as compared to the more "trad" workouts I was doing.

For me, the proof was in the results.

If it were simply an argument about specialized training and a workout carefully tailored to the individual (Crossfit, by its own admission has the same Workout of the Day for everyone and only varies the intensity to suit the individual's capability, IIRC.), I'd concede that Jason has a point but it wouldn't be enough to turn me off on the program. The problem I'm having is that SO many Crossfit videos I've seen on Youtube show people working to exhaustion using horrible, absolutely horrible technique and form. While they may escape injury in the short term - and I'm not convinced some will - they are setting themselves up, IMHO, for some long term repetitive motion type injuries. This is why I'm not pro-Crossfit. However; I'm neither a doctor nor a sports expert, so this is just my opinion.

OTOH, I acknowledge that they really do a good job of motivating people and, were the form and technique of each evolution taught uniformly well, I'd probably go for it myself. If you have a good trainer and good form, I can see how it really helps you in your work and I can't tell you otherwise, but I do take Jason's views and warnings very serously.

[tgace334]

The thing you have to keep in mind with many of those CrossFit videos is that the people in them are attempting to make personal bests on their times..or they are competing in the CrossFit games. Thats why they are "showing off" on the site. There is a difference between "workout" effort and form and "all out". If I were to try to make those times at those weights I would definately hurt myself. I also know my limitations with those O lifts. Thats why I go slower w/ less and alter some workouts due to my skill limitations in the O lifts. However I think you will find that most of the folks who CAN hang at that rate suffer far fewer injuries than you may think.

[Jonathan Randall]

The thing you have to keep in mind with many of those CrossFit videos is that the people in them are attempting to make personal bests on their times..or they are competing in the CrossFit games. Thats why they are "showing off" on the site. There is a difference between "workout" effort and form and "all out". If I were to try to make those times at those weights I would definately hurt myself. I also know my limitations with those O lifts. Thats why I go slower w/ less and alter some workouts due to my skill limitations in the O lifts. However I think you will find that most of the folks who CAN hang at that rate suffer far fewer injuries than you may think.

I have no reason to disbelieve what you are saying and, as I wrote, it sounds as if it is fitting your personal needs very well. However; competition or not, I've never had a coach who would let me get away with such bad form.

[tgace334]

Personally...I look at "form" much like I look at form in martial arts. Training form and combat form are going to look very different...the goal is to train so that your combat form stays within an acceptable bracket. I agree, if your lifting form is so bad that it results in injury, that is bad...but I think that most of the CrossFit elite know their "sacrifice form for speed" limitations. The risk is when the "duffers" think they can get away with the same.

[Oelier]

The problem, I think, is when the "duffers" try to mimic the "experts" and get themselves hurt because they DON'T know the limits.

[jwinch2]

The problem is none of the above. It is that the people running crossfit gyms have no background in what they are teaching. They got their crossfit certification in a seminar that took one weekend to get and that is the extent of their training. Their lifters don't show good form because they don't teach or reinforce good form. Most of them I have met or dealt with don't even know what good form looks like or why alterations in technique might be made for certain people or how to make them if they did know it.

I have been working with athletes, the general population, and people in clinical settings for quite some time now. Repeatedly, I have been able to get clients in all of those populations to max on various lifts to include the Olympic lifts and their derivatives and show good technique in the process. It is not an accident.

[tgace334]

The problem, I think, is when the "duffers" try to mimic the "experts" and get themselves hurt because they DON'T know the limits.

Exactly. Doing these lifts for MAX effort is different from doing 3 rounds of deads/cleans/runs for time. Doing them for time in a workout setting is different from doing them in a competitive setting. Someone knowing how far they can push their "form for speed" without injury is different from a noob or non-competitive participant.

[Erik]

For what it's worth, at this gym the culture is strongly oriented toward avoiding injury, not showing off.

They're competitive with themselves and each other a bit but I have seen zero evidence of recklessness.

[Jonathan Randall]

For what it's worth, at this gym the culture is strongly oriented toward avoiding injury, not showing off.

They're competitive with themselves and each other a bit but I have seen zero evidence of recklessness.

Than it sounds like it's a great move for you that should put you in good physical shape in short order and I don't want my criticisms of some YouTube videos to be a wet blanket for you. Keep us informed of your progress. It's great what you are doing. I do know that Crossfit people excel at motivating and encouraging each other.

[rainesr]

I just heard of Crossfit (I apparently live in a box) and I signed up for six weeks to check it out.

I interviewed the instructor much like I would a Martial Arts teacher. He has a Masters in Physical education and the assistant was a coach for a Jr. Olympic style weightlifting team. There is a third instructor who as far as I can tell is a guy who likes weights and took the level one cert class. He seems to be strictly an assistant as he does not run the classes alone. So there is some formal education here.

They spent a lot of time with us Crossfit newbies on proper technique and form.

but then we started class..

The he format of the class was fast paced and they pushed people to use too much weight. Almost everyone opted to let their form degrade to maintain speed and intensity. On the kettlebells (KB) there were a few people whose back obviously fatigued, their form went out the window. Some never maintained tension with the KB and allowed it to jerk their body on the way down over and over again. Things were moving too fast and the instructors would have had to stop the exercise to correct everyone, at this point I do not believe that will happen unless someone drops out.

The second thing that concerns me was pushing people to lift more weight. They were pushing me to swing two 35lb KBs for fifteen minutes. I have used KBs since I was 12, there have been some gaps, but I am pretty good with the core KB exercises. I have been swinging two 25lb KBs at home. I am not ready for two 35lb KBs for that long yet. I chose the 25lb KBs and I took a lot of heat for it. I wasn't the only one they did this to but I was the only one who ignored them.


I really enjoy the intensity, the workouts in general, and that there are other people working out with me. I think a lot of Jason's points are dead on though. A tailor made regimen is going to come down to availability and affordability, I'll research that option in a few weeks.


~Rob

[jjaje]

I just heard of Crossfit (I apparently live in a box) and I signed up for six weeks to check it out.

...

but then we started class..

The he format of the class was fast paced and they pushed people to use too much weight. Almost everyone opted to let their form degrade to maintain speed and intensity. On the kettlebells (KB) there were a few people whose back obviously fatigued, their form went out the window.

...

I really enjoy the intensity, the workouts in general, and that there are other people working out with me. I think a lot of Jason's points are dead on though. A tailor made regimen is going to come down to availability and affordability, I'll research that option in a few weeks.


~Rob

Good choice Rob. Personally, I think too many crossfit boxes are doing too many metcon workouts (kind of what the workout in your description degraded into) as part of their regular programming. Occasional metcon's are fine, depending on your goals, but not all the time. It's got to be hard on the central nervous system.

Anecdotally, when the "injuries" and "medical issues" forum at the main Crossfit site is over three times larger than their testimonials forum, it's got to make you wonder.

[Ridge]

Cross fit is backed up by rebook and has competition that would be on cable. It's not perfect, but many people who say negative things about it, don't do it due to reasoning, but rather because of envy. This is not to say that crossfit is perfect, just that may people who come down on it, do it for wring reasons.

[Erik]

I stopped because I kept passing out.

[rainesr]

Cross fit is backed up by rebook and has competition that would be on cable. It's not perfect, but many people who say negative things about it, don't do it due to reasoning, but rather because of envy. This is not to say that crossfit is perfect, just that may people who come down on it, do it for wring reasons.

Well I stuck with it for 6 months because hey gave me a great deal. I won't stay with it though. What I see is people being urged on to complete timed exercises even when their form has degraded to (in my uneducated opinion) a dangerous level. I have no problem lowering my weight or coming in dead last to preserve proper form. It is the out of shape moms and the twenty somethings that either don't have the knowledge, sense, or confidence to choose health over their scored time. Oddly enough these are the people getting hurt. The injuries are not tending towards simple pulled muscles, it seems to be tendinitis (elbow and knee) and chronic lower back pain that are causing people to drop out. These are not the usual problems of twenty somethings, at least not in my personal experience.

As businesses, Reebok and cable will associate with what makes money. Their profit margins are not factors I use to to make choices regarding my health.

Envious of what? I have been to Crossfit. The people range from fat and out of shape to very fit, just like any other gym I have been to. I know where you get that statement, because I hear the same stuff constantly repeated at the Crossfit I go to. Crossfit actually has all the same signs as a McDojo. Untrained people teaching untested regimens while giving lavish rewards, instead of rank it is praise and the constant vocal reinforcement about how extra awesome you are for doing Crossfit. Anyone who has worked in sales will recognize the methods they use to make their customers happy.

Crossfit has not been around that long. I am curious what the long term affects will be to the chronic "crossfitters", say 10 to 20 years down the road.

There is my six cents, it may only be worth two but what can you do?

~Rob

[jjaje]

Cross fit is backed up by rebook and has competition that would be on cable. It's not perfect, but many people who say negative things about it, don't do it due to reasoning, but rather because of envy. This is not to say that crossfit is perfect, just that may people who come down on it, do it for wring reasons.

Are you saying people are envious because Crossfit's exercising games are shown on some extra ESPN cable channel, or is sponsored by some clothing/shoe company?

The people I know that criticize Crossfit usually do it because many of their facilities are run by inexperienced "coaches" and their programming is questionable.

[jjaje]

The problem, I think, is when the "duffers" try to mimic the "experts" and get themselves hurt because they DON'T know the limits.

If only that were true. The experts seem to have their fair share of problems too:

In this video, you have a crossfit expert breaking his collarbone on kipping pullups of all dumb things.

The blog posts linked below are from a Crossfit expert and I think Crossfit gym owner.

Read this blog about Progress Hurts, you know pain is progress, just weakness leaving the body and all.

Now what makes that post so interesting is it was two posts before this one: No More Tears, or to retitle it, "How I really messed up my achilles." She's got a lot of progress going on now I bet amongst all that pain.

[jjaje]

Not to pile, on - but a friend sent me this video.

I'm all for adding variety and fun into workouts to get more people involved in their fitness. I'm not for stupid stunts, that really are not thought out, that can get people hurt.



The magic begins at around the 2:10 mark, my favorite character is the one with the coffee cup.