Is TKD really no good in a "real" fight?

**Lord Henry** · 10-07-2009, 13:51

Right off the bat I want to say that I don't want to start any fights with this topic. I don't want to talk about whether TKD is, or should be, a sport or a martial art and I don't want to get into the WTF verses ITF debate.

What I'm interested in is that there seems to be a general acceptance (I find it here on budoseek, on other websites, and even from some people at my dojong) that WKD is not very effective in a "real" (for that read "getting started on in the street") fight.

Where I train we occasionally practice TKD in it's Olympic form (which I enjoy but I don't want it to be the focus of this thread). However, for the most part we practice what I think of as TKD as a martial art. We practice kicks and hand strikes to all areas of the body, elbow and knee strikes, throws and joint locks. We probably spend 50% of the time purely on kicks and the other 50% on the rest.

Now I freely admit that I have little experience of other martial arts. However, other than a lack of wrestling and ground work I feel that all of the bases are covered in what I'm taught. I also feel that many of the moves and combinations that we learn bear some similarity to what I see in Muay Thai, which generally is considered a good "street fighting" martial art.

So, sorry for my long preamble, but my questions are these: 1) Is it fair to say that TKD is not a good martial art for "real" fights, and 2) if so, why and what makes other arts better suited?

Thanks as always.

Owen

**Eliz** · 10-07-2009, 14:16

Originally Posted by Lord Henry

Right off the bat I want to say that I don't want to start any fights with this topic. I don't want to talk about whether TKD is, or should be, a sport or a martial art and I don't want to get into the WTF verses ITF debate.

What I'm interested in is that there seems to be a general acceptance (I find it here on budoseek, on other websites, and even from some people at my dojong) that WKD is not very effective in a "real" (for that read "getting started on in the street") fight.

Where I train we occasionally practice TKD in it's Olympic form (which I enjoy but I don't want it to be the focus of this thread). However, for the most part we practice what I think of as TKD as a martial art. We practice kicks and hand strikes to all areas of the body, elbow and knee strikes, throws and joint locks. We probably spend 50% of the time purely on kicks and the other 50% on the rest.

Now I freely admit that I have little experience of other martial arts. However, other than a lack of wrestling and ground work I feel that all of the bases are covered in what I'm taught. I also feel that many of the moves and combinations that we learn bear some similarity to what I see in Muay Thai, which generally is considered a good "street fighting" martial art.

So, sorry for my long preamble, but my questions are these: 1) Is it fair to say that TKD is not a good martial art for "real" fights, and 2) if so, why and what makes other arts better suited?

Thanks as always.

Owen

The short answer: It depends entirely on the focus of your dojang and whether or not you are being presented with real attacks.

Some dojangs train for competition, some have a heavy concentration in tradition and forms work, but I know there are a few schools around here that really put a huge emphasis on street defense.

I think most would agree that kicking, blocking and punching are more then acceptable methods of defense.

What is missing in TKD, in my opinion, is ground work and joint locks.

Now that is just my short answer (I have to get dinner started). Hopefully some others will chime in here with a few more details.

**doubleouch** · 10-07-2009, 14:59

What's a "real fight?" Do what makes you happy. If you train TKD somewhere for a while and are still wondering then it means there is a problem with the training methods at your school. Practice should closely mimic the event being trained for. If your practice looks way different than the event YOU think you are training for then you'll never know if you are getting functional. Or, you are actually training for some other different kind of event.

**Tony Dismukes** · 10-07-2009, 16:20

I think Elizabeth and Cane are on the money.

Way back when I trained in TKD, many years ago, the curriculum was something like the following.

1) Repetition of various kicks. There was no distinction made between kicks that were effective for self-defense and those that were (at best) useful for sport or demonstrations.*

2) Forms. These were clearly derived from Shotokan karate and involved stepping around in low, wide stances, demonstrating hard-style blocks and punches.

3) Sparring. This involved completely different body mechanics and techniques from the forms. Participants would bounce around on their toes and throw kicks to the limited target areas allowed by the rules. The low stances and hard-style blocks from the forms were never used.

4) Self-defense. Once again, the body dynamics and techniques were pretty much completely different from the forms and the sparring. This mostly involved pre-set defenses against various grabs or other basic attacks that were performed in a static and not very realistic manner.

5) One-step sparring. This was more of a blend between the forms and self-defense than it was anything to do with the sparring. In these exercises, the "attacker" would step forward with a lunge punch from too far away, so that full extension the fist would not quite reach the "defender", and leave the punch fully extended. The the defender would "block" the punch and perform some sort of pre-set counter.

*(When I asked my instructor after class if the straight-legged inside-to-outside crescent kick to the head was really an effective street technique, his response was "You no worry about that. You train hard two years, you get black belt, you fight good.")

Needless to say, I would not consider this sort of training to be effective for developing self-defense skills. If I thought that my limited exposure to TKD was representative of all TKD schools, then I would have a very low opinion of the art. However, I'm quite sure that there are a lot of TKD schools out there which do a much better job of training students for self-defense. You just have to look at how the individual instructor is presenting the art.

**doubleouch** · 10-07-2009, 19:57

That's funny Tony. I wonder how many of us had that exact same experience... We were all training in the dark back in the days before the UFC came along.

**Prince Loeffler** · 10-07-2009, 20:59

How does one define a style in a "real" fight ? If I punch him in the face and I trained in TKD , would I being doing a karate style "fight" ?

**Jonathan Randall** · 10-07-2009, 22:30

I think a better way to phrase the question would be this:

"Can TKD be any good in a fight?".

Answer:

Of course it can, depending upon how it is taught and trained in. Tony's done an excellent job of breaking down the TKD experience many of us had, and the limitations thereof, but as Eliz Seuferling stated, groundwork and joint locks are limited and you do need some exposure to this as well. Ok, the TKD instructor down the street from where I used to live obtained a purple belt in GJJ and now gives workshops on such skills. I bet there are folks like this in your area as well.

**Tony Dismukes** · 10-07-2009, 23:06

Just in case it's not clear from the description, my actual complaints about my TKD experience were as follows:

1) The forms, sparring, and "self-defense" all relied on completely different body mechanics, so practicing one did nothing to reinforce the others. In the event of a real fight, which set of movements would you fall back on?

2) Sparring rules disallowed 90 - 95% of the attacks that a real attacker might throw at you. (Of course, sparring can never fully emulate a real fight, but this was ridiculous.)

3) Practicing defenses against punches that couldn't even reach you in the first place teaches bad distancing and timing.

4) Emphasis on the flashy parts of the curriculum over the reliable "bread-and-butter" techniques.

5) "You train hard two years, you get black belt, you fight good." - Low standards to attract students and tempt them with belt ranks instead of challenging training experiences.

6) "Self-defense" techniques practiced against static, unrealistic attacks.

None of these flaws are necessarily inherent to the martial art of Tae Kwon Do - they're just part of how it's being taught in certain schools. A good instructor can certainly teach TKD without falling into these mistakes, and I'm certain that many do. Such an instructor should produce students who can do very well in the unarmed striking aspects of a real fight.

**David Craik** · 10-08-2009, 05:01

Tae Kwon Do is the standard martial art of the South Korean military, I've sparred with their guys on a few occasions and think they would do very well in a 'real' fight. So I guess it depends on your dojang, the TKD they do and I did in the '80s doesn't look much like the TKD I have seen today.

**doubleouch** · 10-08-2009, 11:19

Well put Tony. That was exactly my experience with TKD.

**Jonathan Randall** · 10-08-2009, 18:56

Originally Posted by David Craik

Tae Kwon Do is the standard martial art of the South Korean military, I've sparred with their guys on a few occasions and think they would do very well in a 'real' fight. So I guess it depends on your dojang, the TKD they do and I did in the '80s doesn't look much like the TKD I have seen today.

Yup, and that is why the question would be better phrased as "Can TKD be effective", with an answer of YES - depending upon how it is trained. One of my 1980's TKD instructors learned in the ROK Armed Forces (he actually fought in the Korean War). His training was completely different than what I experienced in the ATA. Less techniques with him but drilled much harder and with more practicality. He also insisted students learn basic throws and how to fall and regularly drilled these. His purple belts had better rounded skills with far less flash than today's 3rd dans possess, IMHO. They might not have been able to tap someone with their foot as quickly, but if they hit you, you knew it.

**doubleouch** · 10-10-2009, 13:16

In the situations you mentioned I think a flying side kick to the head would be inappropriate. Probalby dropping into a kata would not work either. I'd imagine some sort of grappling art suplimented with some good old fashioned boxing would be far better. For self defense most of what you learn in most TKD schools is extra. There is a lot of "art" that isn't really related to defending yourself at all. Everything you'd learn in a boxing ring would translate easily. As would most of the grappling at a good BJJ or Judo school.

**TonyU** · 10-10-2009, 13:25

One doesn't drop into a kata.

**David Craik** · 10-10-2009, 15:12

X 2.

'Drop into a kata'...

**Tony Dismukes** · 10-15-2009, 08:21

Originally Posted by Tony Dismukes

None of these flaws are necessarily inherent to the martial art of Tae Kwon Do - they're just part of how it's being taught in certain schools. A good instructor can certainly teach TKD without falling into these mistakes, and I'm certain that many do.

Okay, now I'm curious. I've heard consistently good things about the ROK approach to TKD, but they can't be the only ones doing a good job of teaching TKD for self-defense. I'd be interested to hear from any of our other TKD practitioners - how do your schools do in avoiding the six training flaws that I listed earlier?

**ASKKMA** · 10-21-2009, 14:10

How many of you have any REAL street fighting experience. Not MMA, I mean a REAL fight where your life was on the line. I have been unfourtunate enough over the past 19 years to have been in a few. I've studied in that period of time American Karate, Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan & Ho Am Taekwondo, Kempo & a few others.

Was the training I received in TKD effective in keeping me from getting my head pounded in? Simple answer, yes. It seems since the mid 90s & UFC came into the picture, a lot of people think that the only effective fighting method is BJJ. The young lady earlier commented that TKD lacks joint locks & a ground game. The same can be said for BJJ in the respect that it is severely lacking in its standup game.

I respect all martial arts. Different people are better suited for different martial arts. I am a kicker so TKD fits me perfectly.

With that being said I have never thought much of olympic style TKD. Who fights with their hands at their side like that anyway. A skilled TKD artist can go toe-to-toe with any other skilled martial artist around.

**TonyU** · 10-21-2009, 14:12

Originally Posted by ASKKMA

How many of you have any REAL street fighting experience.

Actually, yes, many of us has. I think may of us are in agreement and has been stated many times over. It's not what you train in but how you train in it. Unfortunately many styles, TKD, being a top one karate being another, has lost it's way in practical training and application.

**ASKKMA** · 10-21-2009, 14:15

Originally Posted by TonyU

Actually, yes, many of us has.

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here

**Jonathan Randall** · 10-21-2009, 19:16

Originally Posted by ASKKMA

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here

This particular board is owned and operated by those who do. Check some of the previous posts and threads and you'll find just about the highest proportion of Armed Forces/LEO folks on any MA board on the net.

As to TKD, Eliz said (or wrote!) it all, IMO. TKD rocks - if trained and taught well - which, unfortunately, it rarely is.

**Eliz** · 10-22-2009, 21:29

Thanks Tony D and Jonathan for the kind words and support.

Thanks too to Jeffrey for the "Young lady" remark - you are my new best friend!

Jeffrey, my comment about the ground game was based on the fact that I also train in a seperate traditional Hapkido school. This school uses very few kicks and does not resemble TKD in the least. The two (TKD and traditional HKD) compliment each other well.

I can understand why so many TKD schools merge in HKD elements. And I can understand why so many HKD schools merge in TKD elements. Truly, it is well rounded training. I still am glad that I learned the two styles as seperate and distinctly unique Martial Arts.

I hope that clarifies my remark a little.

As for real life experience, I am HAPPY to report that my real life exposure is limited, although it has been useful to me in staying off additional problems. May I live out the rest of my years with the same limited experiences.

I think you will find many members here, however, who are well versed in real life experience. Funny, they are frequently the quitest ones about their experiences.

I will second Tony D. - we would love to hear more about your training.