Is TKD really no good in a "real" fight?

[TonyU]

Take Naihanchi (Naifanchi chodan) many Japanese Karateka spent anywhere upto 10 years perfecting the form. There are so many usages of these movements. It is completely a Grappling form for both Stand-up AND Groundfighting.

Sigh, here we go again. No it doesn't. While there may be some similar techniques and principles Naihanchi nor karate has ground fighting. But, that's for another thread.

EDIT: The same thing was argued here.

[Eliz]

Okay, now I'm curious. I've heard consistently good things about the ROK approach to TKD, but they can't be the only ones doing a good job of teaching TKD for self-defense. I'd be interested to hear from any of our other TKD practitioners - how do your schools do in avoiding the six training flaws that I listed earlier?

Tony,
I copied the six points below just for clarification

1) The forms, sparring, and "self-defense" all relied on completely different body mechanics, so practicing one did nothing to reinforce the others. In the event of a real fight, which set of movements would you fall back on?

2) Sparring rules disallowed 90 - 95% of the attacks that a real attacker might throw at you. (Of course, sparring can never fully emulate a real fight, but this was ridiculous.)

3) Practicing defenses against punches that couldn't even reach you in the first place teaches bad distancing and timing.

4) Emphasis on the flashy parts of the curriculum over the reliable "bread-and-butter" techniques.

5) "You train hard two years, you get black belt, you fight good." - Low standards to attract students and tempt them with belt ranks instead of challenging training experiences.

6) "Self-defense" techniques practiced against static, unrealistic attacks.

Now to answer your question

Applications were always taught with the form. In other words, the form was taught in segments, after each segment, we would pair up and practice the applications. The philosophies and interpretations of the forms were also taught. During form review, the applications were more like sparring.

As to #2: TKD is also a sport and sports have rules. Out of my 20 years as a TKD practitioner, I have only spent 2 years [part-time] in a dojang that placed a heavy emphasis on competition. Students did not go there to learn a traditional Martial Art, they went there to train to become international competitors.

#3 #5 & #6: Get rich off of giving crappy instruction. That one is easy to avoid: Stay poor! (All kidding aside, there are a lot of quality dojangs out there. Students just have to look hard to find them as they do not always have websites and such.

#4: As most of my experience has been in traditional learning, we actually never emphasised the flashier kicks. The body was always the target, kicks to the head were discouraged, and very few jumping kicks were ever taught. With the exception of maybe 2 or 3 jumping kicks, most are pretty useless and they tear up your body. Thats a no go in my book.

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks, Eliz. That's the sort of thing I was hoping to hear.

One question regarding #2 - when you're not training for sport competition, what sort of rules to you use for sparring?

[Eliz]

Thanks, Eliz. That's the sort of thing I was hoping to hear.

One question regarding #2 - when you're not training for sport competition, what sort of rules to you use for sparring?

I hate to answer a perfectly good question with, "It depends," but in reality - it depends.

It depends on the class
The students and how advanced they are
How much I trust them

In general - mid-ranked and upper ranked teens and adults - I will ask for controlled contact.

Kicks to the face and head are permissable but discouraged. Technically, they are legal and allowed.
I discourage them both for technical reasons and for selfish reasons. Technically, unless there is a height advantage, there are issues of balance and strength. Selfishly, I hate blood on my mats. Drawing blood is not necessarily a sign of excessive force - it can be, but not always. Spilling body fluids means stopping the class and performing the state regulated clean up proceedures.

Punches to the head are all good but they need to be controlled. There are always a few students that like to go silly on head punches and I am always on the look out for them.

The back is iffy - technically nothing is allowed directly to the backbone but that is subjective. Many of the kicks wrap around (Oly hogues are not usually worn in traditional dojangs so the back is unprotected). Was this a normal wrap around kick or a close contact hook kick wherein the heel of the foot made hard contact to the backbone?

Throat, neck, groin and knees - stay away from them

Lower leveled classes or younger students: I vary the sparring to include no contact from the shoulders up or belt down, maybe another day will be all belt level kicks, another day all chest level punches, another day we may do the softest contact possible while still making contact, another day we may focus on combinations that include head punches or kicks, etc. I try to make it interesting and fun while still encompassing the learning mode. This is an important stage as you really do not want students to get hurt or become fearful of getting hurt. But in the same token, you want them to learn.

Some students just pose problems and I keep assistants on hand specifically for them.

[kbarrett]

All martial arts work, it's up to each individual student to make their martial art work for them, by finding it's strenghs and weaknesses you'll learn alot about your martial art. You need to keep the strong parts strong, and work on any weaknesses that there may be, so they'll be strong also, when needed.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[ASKKMA]

How many of you have any REAL street fighting experience. Not MMA, I mean a REAL fight where your life was on the line. I have been unfourtunate enough over the past 19 years to have been in a few. I've studied in that period of time American Karate, Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan & Ho Am Taekwondo, Kempo & a few others.

Was the training I received in TKD effective in keeping me from getting my head pounded in? Simple answer, yes. It seems since the mid 90s & UFC came into the picture, a lot of people think that the only effective fighting method is BJJ. The young lady earlier commented that TKD lacks joint locks & a ground game. The same can be said for BJJ in the respect that it is severely lacking in its standup game.

I respect all martial arts. Different people are better suited for different martial arts. I am a kicker so TKD fits me perfectly.

With that being said I have never thought much of olympic style TKD. Who fights with their hands at their side like that anyway. A skilled TKD artist can go toe-to-toe with any other skilled martial artist around.

[TonyU]

How many of you have any REAL street fighting experience.

Actually, yes, many of us has. I think may of us are in agreement and has been stated many times over. It's not what you train in but how you train in it. Unfortunately many styles, TKD, being a top one karate being another, has lost it's way in practical training and application.

[ASKKMA]

Actually, yes, many of us has.

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here

[ASKKMA]

Actually, yes, many of us has. I think may of us are in agreement and has been stated many times over. It's not what you train in but how you train in it. Unfortunately many styles, TKD, being a top one karate being another, has lost it's way in practical training and application.

I'd have to agree with that. Its sad to see ANY martial art get to that point. It does bother me to see TKD getting such a bad rap from folks. Sadly, it can be blamed on these 5th dan "beer belly" instructors teaching TKD, Karate, TSD, etc, etc to the general public giving black belts out like Halloween candy. Nothing I can do about that but train hard, hold my self true to the art & hope that I can be a positive example of the way TKD is practiced

[Tony Dismukes]

Jeffrey, if you read the previous responses carefully, you'll see that just about all of us agree that the issue is how an art is trained.

"The young lady" who "earlier commented that TKD lacks joint locks & a ground game" is a Tae Kwon Do instructor with many years of experience in the art. I think you can rest assured that she was not intending to trash TKD nor was she speaking on a subject she doesn't have a clue about.

If you check my earlier posts, I detailed what I see as the unfortunate flaws in how the art was taught in the schools where I and many others encountered it. I did ask for information in how TKD is trained in schools that have a more realistic focus, and Eliz was kind enough to give some info on how she teaches. Since you've apparently had good experiences with TKD, perhaps you could also explain what your training is like and how your school avoids the pitfalls I mentioned?

[Jonathan Randall]

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here

This particular board is owned and operated by those who do. Check some of the previous posts and threads and you'll find just about the highest proportion of Armed Forces/LEO folks on any MA board on the net.

As to TKD, Eliz said (or wrote!) it all, IMO. TKD rocks - if trained and taught well - which, unfortunately, it rarely is.

[Eliz]

Thanks Tony D and Jonathan for the kind words and support.

Thanks too to Jeffrey for the "Young lady" remark - you are my new best friend!

Jeffrey, my comment about the ground game was based on the fact that I also train in a seperate traditional Hapkido school. This school uses very few kicks and does not resemble TKD in the least. The two (TKD and traditional HKD) compliment each other well.

I can understand why so many TKD schools merge in HKD elements. And I can understand why so many HKD schools merge in TKD elements. Truly, it is well rounded training. I still am glad that I learned the two styles as seperate and distinctly unique Martial Arts.

I hope that clarifies my remark a little.

As for real life experience, I am HAPPY to report that my real life exposure is limited, although it has been useful to me in staying off additional problems. May I live out the rest of my years with the same limited experiences. I think you will find many members here, however, who are well versed in real life experience. Funny, they are frequently the quitest ones about their experiences.

I will second Tony D. - we would love to hear more about your training.

[ASKKMA]

Thanks Tony D and Jonathan for the kind words and support.

Thanks too to Jeffrey for the "Young lady" remark - you are my new best friend!

Jeffrey, my comment about the ground game was based on the fact that I also train in a seperate traditional Hapkido school. This school uses very few kicks and does not resemble TKD in the least. The two (TKD and traditional HKD) compliment each other well.

I can understand why so many TKD schools merge in HKD elements. And I can understand why so many HKD schools merge in TKD elements. Truly, it is well rounded training. I still am glad that I learned the two styles as seperate and distinctly unique Martial Arts.

I hope that clarifies my remark a little.

As for real life experience, I am HAPPY to report that my real life exposure is limited, although it has been useful to me in staying off additional problems. May I live out the rest of my years with the same limited experiences. I think you will find many members here, however, who are well versed in real life experience. Funny, they are frequently the quitest ones about their experiences.

I will second Tony D. - we would love to hear more about your training.

Yes Maam. I meant no disrespect to you in any way. You look like a "Young Lady" to me & that is what I meant

Sorry if I came across wrong in my post Ladies & Gentlemen. I hear so much bashing from people sometimes I tend to jump the gun.

Excellent points made by Miss Seuferling.

[doubleouch]

Here's a quote from my instructor related to this topic of discussion. Sorry it's so long...
"
Saturday, July 30, 2005
Why Aliveness?. . . .


I have traveled literally all over the world over the last several Years. And it has been a great privilege for me to do so. The reason for my travels have been seminars, and regardless of where I am I always start them the same way. I explain that my main message, the thing I am most interested in sharing with people, with communicating effectively, is the message of Aliveness.

Occasionally I am asked why I bother? Why not just teach some functional fighting skills, and leave it at that. Why explain the process? Why discuss the differences? In short, why is Alivenes the main message?

And my answer to that can be summed up in four words. . it is SO healthy!

When our intentions regarding the activity we are engaging in are clear, honest, and open, then that 'thing' (activity-event) becomes incredibly healthy.

It is about Authenticity.


In other words, if someone says "I do Tai Chi because I find it a relaxing form of moving meditation". . . .I say, rock on! In fact, I might even join them.

However, if someone says "no need for Doctors Tai Chi will cure your cancer." Then I may need to question that. And that questioning is also incredibly healthy. Likewise, if they say "Tai Chi will serve as a wonderful form of self defense". . .then I will also want to question that. Both those claims, 'cures cancer', and 'good for self defense', are verifiable within objective reality. And as such, if we are really interested in Truth with the capitol T, then not only should we question those statements, I believe we have an obligation to.

I think that is common sense. When we don't question such statements within ourselves, and accept them solely at face value, then we find ourselves lost, deceived, and often hurt.

Granted, one of those things (cures cancer) may be far more serious then the other. But both are equally irresponsible, and I never claimed to have the most 'serious' job. Just a blessed one.

So let me be clear about what I mean when I say 'question'.


We come to the question of speaking publicly on it. And to be clear, I don't advocate that for everyone. In fact, the only thing I believe matters is that we are honest within our own self about our own intentions. And that we remain skeptical, and question all forms, and statements of authority. . .for ourselves.

Whether or not someone then goes out and speaks to others about their findings is an individual thing. I can only say I am really-really grateful that some people do.

I think of the Amazing Randi, who has been debunking charlatans like Uri Geller for well over 30 Years. His writings had a great impact on me when I was a teenager. I remember watching Uri Geller on television and feeling like something was just not 'right'. And his book helped validate my own critical thinking on the matter.

And Lord knows that if this world could use a little more of something, then 'critical thinking' would rank VERY high on that list. Just under Love and Compassion, in my opinion.


I felt much the same about Martial Arts as I think Randi and many others felt about the scams of Uri Geller. I felt like I had been deceived, whether intentionally, or through ignorance. But deceived either way. And that is never a good way to feel. And it can, and does, happen to us all. Uri Geller deceived a large pool of highly educated scientists at the Stanford Research Institute, using what amounted to poor magic tricks. Just as thousands of people have been deceived by fraudulent Martial Arts, only to find out later that what they where being taught might in reality get them hurt. Especially if they believed it worked! (Witness the first few UFC's for an example).

Did they want to believe, or where they just naive?

I have a good friend who recently sat in on an interview with a major Martial Arts figure. This man being interviewed is known as one of the leading authorities in "pressure points". . .which he claims are hidden within 'katas'. When asked why we don't see this amazing pressure point knock outs in full contact sports, he said "they have been banned". When pressed as to why that would stop a grappler from striking a point on the body which was legal within most sports, he said "well you have to hit three points almost at the sametime, and it depends on what time of day it is!". I am paraphrasing from memory, but I promise the exact quotes would be equally absurd. He then explained how these points are different on men and woman, and which order they need to be struck. My friend then asked, "what if the guy you are fighting was gay? Would you use the male points, or the female points?" And this person sat very still for a moment, and then he said "use the female points."

Sadly, he was deadly serious.

This man then went on to explain how you can knock someone down using just a sound. . .which he began to make. My friend emulated the sound, and then asked, "If I was in that corner of the room making this sound, and someone else was in the other corner making this sound, would you consider it a mass attack?" After some thought the man answered, "yes".

And no, I am not kidding.


So I still see Aliveness as the core message.

When Aliveness is compromised on, the entire structure falls apart. This happens because Authenticity is lost. And the results are not healthy.

But when Aliveness is maintained, then everything else seems to come right in the end. And once the proper methods for drilling and Coaching are added in, the sky is really the limit in terms of potential.

So having stated that, I will start off this BLOG with a basic Aliveness Q & A. These answers have been gathered over many Years, and all these questions have been asked many hundreds of times. This section details the answers we have given, time and time again.

-Enjoy

"In considering whether being Alive is good, we must realize that what matters is not what the mind thinks about being, but only the experience of being. And this experience can only be had when the mind is not."
- Robert Powell


* * *

What is Aliveness?


Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion.

What do you mean by timing, energy, & motion?

for something to be truly alive in what we do then it has have three key elements, movement, timing, and energy (resistance). If you are missing any one of these then it is not Alive.

Movement means real footwork, not contrived, not in a pattern.... on the ground it means exactly that also... movement.... if the person is just laying there, not moving as you apply your lock or move....that is not Alive. In the clinch its the same... .pushing, pulling, moving.

Timing is of course just that.... if its in a predictable rhythm, a pattern, a repeatable series of sets, then you are not acquiring or developing timing, just motion speed.

And of course energy.... swing the stick like someone would really swing it.... dont stop at centerline. Punch with the energy of someone who wants to hit you. Not locking your arm out so your partner can look good doing the destruction, or trap, or silat sweep, etc.

You must move, have a sense of timing, and progressive resistance


Why do you place so much emphasis on this point as opposed to others?

Aliveness is everything. If a person grasps the principle and truly understands what is mean by it. . then they can never be ********ted again . Thats why I emphasize it so much. I am also constantly being asked....whats better.... this or that. . this style or that style....why don't you do this drill anymore...why do you say this doesn't work.... The answer to all those questions is Aliveness........so once they grasp what that means then about one thousand and one of their questions are answered for them. It's everything.

However, if someone wants to collect a certificate from a well known "Sifu", or look cool doing two person forms, then they will not care or pay attention to the concept of Aliveness.

Why do people then find the Aliveness concept so difficult to accept?

I think that is because when some people start to train Alive, and expose their students to Alive training, they often have to throw out a major portion of the curriculum they learned before. This is because it is shown to not work when applied against a resisting opponent. And Aliveness gauges that very quickly.

All of the sudden the premium is placed on performance. And Arts that perform well. . .boxing, wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and others, become the base.

What is the distinction between "delivery systems", & personal "style"?

"Style" is always very individual.Each fighter has his/her own "style". And it's aquired only through sparring and Alive training. In that action against a resisting opponent the athlete discovers how to make the delivery system work for them. That is their "style".

However, Delivery Systems always remain fairly constant, regardless of the individual body.

In other words, there is a proper way to put on a rear naked choke. And as long as humans have the same design to their bodies, that 'technique' will remain the same. That choke is an example of "delivery system".

That is why the typical JKDC method of a buffet aproach, picking and choosing from many arts regardless of the delivery system, is such a poor idea. Without solid skill in the basics of the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground, you will not be able to fight, or apply any of the information. Sticking to the simple basics, drilling Alive, and sparring, is the only way we have found to aquire real functional skill.

Delivery systems can be tested, and it's obvious what works and what does not. MMA has shown the boxing, wrestling, and BJJ delivery systems to be of great value. So the delivery systems fighters choose tend to all be the same. Someone trained in say 'silat', without that background in the functional delivery systems mentioned above, would be unable to compete in MMA. They cannot defend themselves against such opponents.

However, each fighter naturaly develops their own style, as they practice, drill, spar, and fight. No two BJJ fighters are the same, yet they all use the same delivery system. No two boxers are the same, yet they all use the same delivery systems.

It's all very simple and clear.


But isn't ALL just up to the individual.
There are no superior delivery systems are there?

There is a proper way to perform a rear naked choke that will allow you to achive the desired results as quickly and efficently as possible. This is simply a reality. Likewise, we there is a proper way to throw a right cross. Their may be many variations of 'how' it is thrown. . .this is 'style' and every boxer will have his own. But the fundamental body mechanics, such as rotation of the hips, are based on the laws of gravity and motion, and this is the delivery system.

Whether people choose to acknowledge that reality does not change the truism.

As an example, everyone who teaches functional ground fighting these days is incorporating the guard, mount, etc. They may call it Submission wrestling, but, it's the same delivery system.

Since the Brazilians brought that delivery system to prominence I feel it's important for me to give them credit. But ultimately, the name of the style is not important. The reality that the delivery system is backed by principles of leverage and timing, and works against resisting opponents; that is what is important.

Can you give me a better example of what you mean when you say 'delivery system'?

Sure, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu could be called a 'style'. Shooto could be called a 'style'. But, if you took a close look at two of the top players, as an example I will say Rumino Sato of Shooto, and Renzo Gracie of BJJ, then you would see that they are using the same delivery system. They both train the same positions, guard, mount, crossides, head and arm, etc. The same submissions, armbars, leg locks, chokes, etc. And the same types of drills, passing the guard, drilling leg locks, etc. So they essentially train in the same delivery system. So the Shooto, BJJ name becomes moot at that point.

Without that delivery system neither one would be as good of a fighter on the ground. That is just a fact. Imagine if Sato didn't know what the guard was, or could never hold that position, or if Renzo didn't train his escapes from mount.

So a delivery system is just that, a system of body mechanics, or movements.

Here is another example, both JJ Machado and Rigan Machado teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. If you asked them to teach you a shoulderlock from mount position I am sure they would both teach you the same method of delivery. How to set your weight, hold position, crank the joint, etc. That is because there is a best known way to do this. That may not be the politically correct thing to say, but it is the truth.

Now as far as 'style' goes. Both have a totally different style. Rigan is slow and crushing, and works an amazing top game that makes you feel like a crushed bug. JJ has a fast, machine gun like, attacking game from the guard. JJ puts the word active into his guard game in a whole new way. So they both have very different styles, but the same delivery system. "

Matt Thornton- Straight Blast Gym

[Burzum]

Well TKD was defanged ages ago when it was molded more or less into a sport. It's 99.9% kicking. Now theres nothing wrong with kicking provided a person faced with a real encounter on the street throws the right type of kick & has the space to throw that kick. TKD has it's limitations but then so does just about all other arts'/systems' as well.


BJJ for instance only will work one on one & lets face it. The last place you want to end up on the street in on the ground as more times than not the type of person that will jump you will not be alone. That being said Kung Fu, Karate, Aikido & the lot all have strong & weak points. It really comes down to the person with their back against the wall in a street encounter that will determine the outcome. Some talk the talk while others can walk the walk. It's as simple as that really.

[kbarrett]

You really can't know how your going to respond in a street fight until it actually happens, the only thing you can do is train hard and make sure that your self-defense is sharp, simple and of good quality, so I'll be there when called on.

Also your going to have to get mean real mean and fight with everything you've got, a street fight is dirty and unforgivening, unliked the dojo, where your surroundings are pleasant and safe.

Like everybody's said so many time before it's not the style, it all about the person and hard they train with in that style of MA.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Uncon214]

Really this all depends on how you train. If you train with a realistic air, then yes it's great for the striking/combative phase of a fight... If all you do is point spar then be prepared to push up daisies.

I am a taekwondo practitioner myself and have realized it all comes down to perception and training. I do not train for point sparring. I think it's totally ridiculous... fun... but ridiculous nonetheless. I train to go home at night, every night.

Any martial art is only as effective in the realm of self-defense as the student trains. If you train to score points, you'll score points. If you train to stay alive, then you'll (hopefully... Mr. Murphy is omnipresent) stay alive.

[Nick L.]

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here

I just want to know what "Shotkan" is?

[kbarrett]

While I don't want to start a debate of whether point fighting is any good or not because it's been talked about to death.

It really dose depend on who's running the competition and the rules with in, I know when I was competing "light contact" to the head was allowed and "heay contact" to the body was also allowed.

Now with that being said, I will also say that I enjoyed dojang sparring even more than competition sparring, because in the dojang contact can be a lot heavier and we didn't have to stop for points.

Point sparring isn't MMaA or KickBoxing, it wasn't meant to be, but there can't be contact it just depends like I said on who running the competition and the rule they want to have with reards to contact.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Adam G]

Goshin or modern Japanese Jujutsu is where its at for self defense. You can throw away all other martial arts IMO. Goshin JJJ covers every single aspect of a fight from stand up, take down and throws, ground work, multiple attackers, weapons. You name it Goshin JJJ covers it.
IMO its simply the most all round effective martial art, modern arts like Krav Maga or Goshin JJJ are goods for self defense .