Zen in the Martial Arts = Dead

[Mekugi]

In answer to Russ' question seeking specific examples (even though it's a set-up ). I sense that there is a connection between cultivating non-attachment through Zen and the need for non-attachment in bujutsu. Where this has an impact on strategy I would see as being in the concept of 捨身: sutemi not as a product of non-attachment, but non-attachment being a kind of principle enabling sutemi. However I only hazard such a poor and dubious answer so as not to hide behind the scoundrel's counter-argument of "it's all beyond words" (like the Ninja's answer to the query 'Where's your lineage?': 'It's secret.').

Of course it is impossible to test any of this really. We are all involved in make-believe to some extent.

b

Sutemi-rific!:

It doesn't matter! Whether sutemi is a product of non-attachment or attachment is secondary. Sutemi exists...and it is what it is. Just thinking about it creates an attachment. Furthermore, anything you think about during that sutemi then misguides the true intent of that sutemi...which should be happening in a :no mind: state. Don't make me quote Takuan poorly and ignorantly....
And herein lies my point (heh...like I really have one):
Your technique has to exist before you stop thinking about it...apparently. This zen stuff all occurs after the fact....so just accept it as "being". Esshhh....I am awful at this....


We can't test it now, but it was tested back then. Does the existence of Zen mean that it correlates with faking it? Muhahahaha!

That moves along to my second point on my horrendously biased and ill-planned agenda:

Notice how this "Rinzai Rise" correlates to a very peaceful era? That is a to say, an Era with more intrigue than blood spilling. Other than the peasants revolting...it was a pretty "blah" 300 years for the bushi. If something did happen it was put down in a very Zen way...disarming the offenders and bringing out the iron fist. ZZZzzzz.

So the claptrap about weapons and warrior-ship was second to the obedience to your lord, who had the right to kill you in the era that followed. That of course corresponded the the "zen path" which supported the class system and enabled a lot of horrible things to happen to their patrons. So as a good political mechanism, it was used to prepare the Zen Sheeple for slaughter by the proper officials. There, I said it and I am not going to take it back! Nyahhhh...

The Zen-bushi, of course didn't have much of of a fight because their family was held hostage in a castle town with no way to escape. That, of course, was the very thing the real buddhist warriors (IMHO), the Sohei, protested...and of course they were slaughtered for it and driven to the underground (eventually they also became political wiener-heads; Social Darwinism).

The whole Rinzai warrior-zen-buddhist thing, IMHO, is a very well planned political movement that happened with Takuan getting the Shogun to authorize a "higher" buddhism that would support rank and file. The very same subject that got him banished to the North (outrage against Hidetada Tokugawa's government abbot appointment system) then became his weapon against the shogun....what was that thing about the enemy's spear being used against him? Oh yeah...oops. It was there all along!

Anyway, I still think...therefor I am (kinda...).

[ben]

I think I get where you're coming from now Russ.

b

[Josh Reyer]

Kinda late, but some thoughts.

Zen in budo needs to be put into historical context. If you were a 15th/16th century bushi, your education consisted of Chinese classics. Confucius and his disciples, and various Buddhist thinkers, particularly those of Shingon and Rinzai Zen. In the Sengoku and Edo periods, there was no discipline of psychology, so when a martial arts instructor wished to examine and expound on the workings of the mind, he went to what was in his day and culture the most advanced conceptual model: Buddhism.

Here in the West, or in English discourse, we turn to psychological and physiological models: "the zone", "combative flow state". The OODA loop is the result of studies in mathematics, economics, philosophy and physics, mixed in with John Boyd's own personal experiences and observations. It was a combination of practical knowledge building off of a broad, modern education.

In essence, Takuan's musings on heiho and letters to Yagyu Munenori et al. are paralleled by the work of, say, Dave Grossman. While Grossman is an Army-trained psychologist who, while never actually experiencing real combat, managed to draw on his education and training to provide insights to soldiers and LEOs, Takuan was likewise a trained soldier who drew on his own wide education and study of the mind to provide insights to the soldiers of his time.

A bushi 300-400 years ago perceived the world according to his education, be that training in Mikkyo or Zen, and thus Buddhism (and Zen in particular) provided the idiom through which they could express their understanding of psychology and physiology in combat. Zen references abound in non-Takuan-influenced strains of Shinkage-ryu, going back to the founder Kamiizumi Hidetsuna. Kamiizumi and his student Yagyu Munetoshi never met Takuan, and to them heiho was much more than peacetime training; these guys actually went to the wars. Why then did they turn to Zen (among other things) to express their ideas of combat? Because it was what they knew, and was to them the most advanced model of the mind in their time. This is not to say that they simply borrowed terminology, any more than than Grossman and others are borrowing terminology from psychology and other disciplines. Zen was the shape of their understanding of the world.

The modern study of Zen, in and of itself, is not likely to provide a practitioners with deep insights in budo. At least, not any more than the study of psychology, hoplology, physics or philosophy. What it can do is offer insight into the idiom and expressions of those budo forebears who expressed their understanding of budo in Zen. In the end, the physical practice is paramount. It's the physical practice that provides the key to understanding the conceptual framework.

[Mekugi]

Zen was the shape of their understanding of the world.

No, it really wasn't, at least not at the onset of Edo. This is something that happened *later* on...after the Sengoku wars when zen was raised up along with the support of the framework in the caste system <shinokosho). I agree with you on the study of classics, but one must remember that those same classics that were perceived one way before the "Zen explosion" were then looked at with a slightly (greatly) different eye afterwards. However, If we are talking dead on 18th century Japan, then I would agree with you because Zen and their abbots had the bushi by the short and curlies when it came to salvation and society...before that you had an entirely different generation running things.
That is to say, zen was relatively small until it became the official religion of the Shogunate during the first part of Edo. The influence of Zen afterward was HUGE in the Bushi community. Before that, if you wanted to talk Bushi and Buddhism you are talking primarily about the Tendai/Jodo sects, point of fact. Prior to Edo, zen sects tended to stay out of warfare (other than temple feuds, which Sohei usually settled at the expense of Zen monks, temples & followers) and were total peaceniks- unappealing to soldiers and warmakers. That is to say not *until* Takuan shredded the Zen scene with Ikko-ikki and Jodo Shinshu doctrine and sold it neatly packaged as Zen for the Shogun. Generally speaking, martial arts before the religious uprisings and the then-later Zen sects were almost all about Shinto (enter Tendai...) which supported the promulgation of the martial arts (Buddhism, incidentally, supported writing them down and categorizing of things- especially in Zen times. Take a look at writing during Edo and you see a familiar categorization in the flavor of Buddhism. Previous documents are a great deal different). Even the Buddhist deity Marishiten has a Shinto counterpart stemming from Tendai, which was borrowed and played more to the Zen-bushi crowd as it gathered....and things were re-written.


Great read, a dissertation by Chad Kohalyk in 2006 (I believe this is from the Royal Military College in Canada and Chad is a Daito Ryu 'guy): http://www.scribd.com/doc/24560459/R...r?autodown=pdf

[Josh Reyer]

No, it really wasn't. This is something that happened *later* on...after the Sengoku wars.

Yes and no. The Zen character of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu goes back to the Sengoku period, long before Takuan. Takuan expanded on concepts already present. Just looking at the writings of Kamiizumi and Munetoshi we see reference to "mushin", "mukei". A number of Zen koan are referenced next to kudensho written by Munetoshi and Kamiizumi. The names of the five parts of Sangaku-En no Tachi, devised by Kamiizumi and written down in 1566 all come from the "Blue Cliff Record", a collection of Zen koan. "Katsujinken" is a Zen term. Myoshinji dates back to the 14th century, Kinkakuji was made into a Zen temple by Ashikaga Yoshimochi in the early 15th century. The Ashikaga in particular were patrons of Rinzai Zen.

Looking at the oldest extant kenjutsu ryuha, we see that Iizasa Ienao was a follower of Shingon Buddhism, and expressed many concepts in that idiom. We see that Kamiizumi Hidetsuna was a follower of Zen and Shingon Buddhism, and expressed many concepts in those idioms (particularly Zen). We see that Nen'ami Jion was a follower of Zen and Shingon Buddhism. I don't know if he used either to express concepts in his kenjutsu, but with a name like "Nen-ryu", it's a good bet he did. Ono Tadaaki was a Rinzai Zen follower, and my understanding is that Ito Ittosai was a Zen follower, as well.

All of which to say, while the connection with Zen and samurai can be and has been overstated, to say that it had no influence on budo previous to the Edo period would also be overstating it. It's one thing to say that looking at the samurai population as a whole, Zen didn't become widespread until the Edo period, thanks to the support of the Bakufu. On the other hand, we have extant written records of Zen's influence on the conceptual framework of certain ryuha going back to the Sengoku period. Regardless of what the population as a whole were doing, the men who were writing down their understanding of the body and mind in combat where doing so using the Buddhist idiom, both Shingon and Zen. Even if we go into the Edo period and include Takuan and Munenori, those were men who came of age in the Muromachi period. Nor did those men consider themselves to be living in the "Edo Period", let alone the long peace of the Edo period. They did live through the Osaka Castle campaigns and the Shimabara Rebellion, after all. The world they knew wasn't significantly different from the Sengoku period.

So, as far as some bloodied men of the Sengoku period thought, Zen in the martial arts =/= death. Aside from that, I certainly agree with your first post (and tried to make that clear in my previous post), that zazen isn't going to make you a better martial artist.

[Jeff C.]

This seems to be an interesting text concerning "the religion of the samurai," although it is a bit of a difficult read: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/rosa/index.htm

Jeff Cook

[Mekugi]

Yes and no. The Zen character of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu goes back to the Sengoku period, long before Takuan.

Oops! Agreed. I misread you before. I thought you were talking about Bujutsu in general....at least at the time I read it that way. So, my previous post was about the general...not Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Although, there are claims otherwise....and some say that Munenori is really the one to install a zen Buddhist flavor. Check this out:

“Perhaps the strongest principle Munenori tried to instill in his disciples was that swordsmanship was not a skill learned to kill people but rather to fully realize one’s personality, one’s inner being. This concept also played a pivotal role in strategy. Although Munenori had not yet incorporated Zen Buddhism into his swordsmanship during the years he instructed Tokugawa Hidetada, his every move seemed oriented in that direction. To Munenori, swordsmanship was far more than the art of developing fencing techniques; it was life itself, for it trained man to develop his inner self. By training with Munenori, therefore, Shogun Hidetada was learning the essentials of statecraft through swordsmanship.”

This is from Makoto Sugawara's book "Lives of Japanese Swordsman". I did a search and found this here: http://ejmas.com/tin/2008tin/tinart_...ajitsuka2.html

So there are definitely a couple schools of thought on this subject (whether I knew it or not).

Okay anyway, it's ironic that Tendai, Shingon, Jodo-shu were embraced by the soldier class while Zen was not, but it seems Zen has the most to say about the subject...now. Zen, again, was peacenik and the numbers of said fighting-lot were few- a lot of rich merchants and aristocrats however (Kyoto has the best Zen shrines...woohoo). To me, this alone is suspect and needs closer examination. Where's the proof? It's just taken for granted that everyone must have been Zen, look how old Zen Buddhism is...it must be true. Proof is set aside.

That being said I am *highly* suspect of any texts written in just before or just after the Edo era or during the "Zen Explosion" expounding on the Zen-ness of the schools founder as things tended to be re-written to meet an end. I've seen that first hand. Such an example is Ito Ittosai. Ono Tada-aki and his intercourse with, again, Takuan led to a great deal of zen being poured into that style. After Tada-aki, it is made out that Ittosai is a freaking wondering Zen-buddhist monk looking for enlightenment. Um...yeah...nothing odd there. From what I understand, very little is known about Ittosai and what is was written was done so years after his death. Hmmm....

To that affect, I raise this observation:
I would suspect the ushin and mushin aspects of Zen are akin to the earlier ke and ku of Tendai Nembutsu and how perhaps ideas were transposed from a Buddhism directly associated with soldiers to Zen(one that really, for the most part, was not). Matter of fact, the ke and ku principles were used for teaching in Tendai- especially when it came to warrior things. Tendai and Jodo-shu chants inciting these qualities and protection are abound and are generally recited before undertaking danger or peril. Furthermore, Takuan did borrow a lot, point in case he directly steals Jodo-shinshu stories in "unfettered mind" and today he would be guilty of a great deal of copyright infringement.

Perhaps the Muga of Jodo-shu is transposed there as well...seeing these are things that were expounded upon specifically for warriors (especially sohei) in the other sects, but not particularly so in the Zen branches (which did not have sohei).

[Mekugi]

...Takuan was likewise a trained soldier who drew on his own wide education and study of the mind to provide insights to the soldiers of his time.

Eh? Do you know something I don't here, or is that a mistake?

[Storiale]

Dynamic meditation, Mahasati Meditation is a form of mindfulness meditation. It is a technique developed by the late Thai Buddhist reformist, Luangpor Teean Jittasubho. Mahasati Meditation uses movement of the body to generate self-awareness and is a powerful tool for self-realization. Practiced throughout Asia and in the United States, this method of meditation is appropriate for anyone regardless of religion or nationality.

This is the definition given by wikipedia - I can't post the link (the BB won't allow it). The point being is that there are many forms of meditation. Pick the one that works best for you and do not usurp that yours is the best way or the only way.

[Storiale]

Agreed. That is called "Wax On, Wax Off." Not to be funny about it, but that is what that entire scene in Karate Kid was about. I experienced this last year during 5 weeks of training with a boxing trainer specializing in defense. He was a student of Tony Zale (was a 2-time world middleweight champion and made the Ring Magazine's list of 100 greatest punchers of all time).

We practiced 3 or 4 moves for 5 weeks, 3 days per week for 60 minutes. I was extremely upset, since we did no cardio, no mitt work, no actual sparring. We drilled parrying the jab, slipping right hands, etc.

When the fight came to fruition, I had very little confidence that I would survive the fight - I finally settled on the following, "I'll do exactly what he said, if I get my butt kicked, then it is his fault." I relaxed after this - My opponent did not hit me for 3 rounds (3-2min rounds). I parried every jab, I slipped and countered his right (knocking his mouth piece out with a left hook counter). It was ridiculous.

But this came from drilling, drilling, drilling. The military does the same thing - they drill drill drill and the fear, thoughts, etc - go away and there is only what there is to do. And then you win.

Disagree..it depends on what things you believe you should be "thinking about". I'll compare it to tactical operations. I need to "think" about things like terrain, avenues of approach, positions of friendlies/opponents, etc. Things like manipulating my weapons, transitions, reloads, malfunction clearances etc..are pretty much done "no-mind".

If I have to "think"..."hes going to throw a straight right, I am going to to bob to my right"...Im getting punched in the face. If I have a general strategy like "he likes to throw uppercuts. I'm going to throw a left hook against it". Thats a different thing. I dont necessarily "think"..."here comes the uppercut..time to throw the hook", but I have that subroutine prepped and ready to go.

[Mekugi]

The problem is, this is not what Zen is usually teaching. Not from my experience. Maybe I haven't had a lot of it...but I sincerely do not put a lot of stock in this stuff. Nor do I believe that it was the foundation of martial arts in Japan, including Yagyu Shinkage Ryu- I think that is a flight of fancy that came later on. Proof is in the pudding. Here it's a bonafide religion and I am not one to gravitate to it. Namely because most of the people who do end up hiding behind it. Lofty words with **very little** real world experience.

Edit:

I remember reading this a few years ago....I think this best explains what I am getting at explained through a mind far better than mine (note this has a naughty word in it...be careful where you open it): ON BS

[Jonathan Randall]

The problem is, this is not what Zen is usually teaching. Not from my experience. Maybe I haven't had a lot of it...but I sincerely do not put a lot of stock in this stuff. Nor do I believe that it was the foundation of martial arts in Japan, including Yagyu Shinkage Ryu- I think that is a flight of fancy that came later on. Proof is in the pudding. Here it's a bonafide religion and I am not one to gravitate to it. Namely because most of the people who do end up hiding behind it. Lofty words with **very little** real world experience.

I've also noticed that the closer (and longer) people are to the source - Japan - the less they speak of zen or other types of mysticism as it relates to the martial parts of "the martial arts". Best examples I can think of off the top of my head is Don Roley's great article on "The Godai" and compare Hayes' representation to Herrigel's. Neither of their fellow students or former instructors in Japan knew what the heck they were talking about.

Whoa. I'd better edit that:

I meant an anology between Hayes' and Herrigels representation of the "spiritual aspects" of their art and did not mean to compare their characters or levels of personal integrity. Herrigel was a member of the Nazi party and, IIRC, joined the S.S.. Hayes has never shown such defects of character and I want to make clear I do not mean such a comparison.

[Mekugi]

Daishado-kyo is interesting in its own right. Very strange stuff going on at that time, Herrigel was a interesting man for sure. Strange, but interesting.

I just realized not a lot of people are going to get this.

Here: http://archive.thebuddhadharma.com/i...ew_zenbow.html

I think this is total BS...

[Andrewninja]

I am new here, Have had no actually training in any martial arts. But I would say read the book by Nicklaus Suino, Budo Mind and Body.
It says zen is never achieved by beginners and even by accomplished instructors and even by the many that strive for it. Zen is paradoxical because once you are in it, and notice, you are no longer in it. The state of being one with nature completely and fully in the moment of yourself and your surroundings. The idea of zen being dead in martial arts is most likely true in western aspects where it is harder or impossible to grasp the concepts of such things, just like the idea of ki, most practitioners in the west disregard these as myth because they have closed their minds to its possibility due to the fact that there is no evidence of it existing. I am not saying it is real, I am not saying it is not, for I have not experienced it. What I am saying is that it is a possibility, because if it were not, Its "idea" would not even exist. It is almost exactly like saying god doesn't exist to a preacher from the point of an evolutionist, there is no point in debating.

[Mekugi]

I can't comment on what Suino wrote, I simply haven't read his book. However, if this quote is true and not out of context, I would take a LARGE grain of salt with it. For example, can you find anything concrete in what he is saying here? It exists, but it doesn't really exist; it happens, but you'll never know it Happens (much to the chagrin of thousands of zazen practitioners seeking an unfettered spirit). Speaking of "ki" is not matter of faith, but of definition. There are several outside of the New Age doctrine that floods the west- especially concerning the martial arts. In terms of what you're talking about as a mystical energy and there not being any proof - it has nothing to do with having a closed mind. It has to do with observation and testing. It hasn't passed any. For example. There are stories about people flying on their own like a bird in almost every culture, do you believe that people can fly and it's just a matter if believing in it? I can no more throw a chi ball at someone than I can fly

[Andrewninja]

I shall have to get back to you on the actual words he writes, I just finished the book the other day. It is a short read so I shall have to look through it and get back to you. And the 'ki' I refer to is not the mystical mumbo that everyone spouts and I do not believe that people can 'fly' without the use of devices such as hang gliders or free fall suits or things of that nature, I think it is something to the degree of willpower that can be used to achieve certain aspects of martial arts, like rooting, which helps with stability in a stance which when learned can be transitioned into motion rooting or stability while in motion. 'Ki' has a seemingly mystical aspect to it due to the legends of masters doing unthinkable things or seemingly impossible things. It is more an inner energy that when mastered (again by very few and far between) has the potential to do said seemingly impossible things, to the degree of the physically possible. Chi ball and all those other ideas are just extreme unrealistic examples of the idea of 'ki'.

[rainesr]

As a sidebar, I used to train in karate in a dojo that was part of a local church and the Christian Karate Association. One of the sensei would pontificate and preach during bow-in and bow-out; no problem, everyone there knew it was a Christian church-oriented group.

What I found to be sadly hilarious is they would pointedly lecture us (me in particular, as I was the token heathen) that they did not tolerate anything Zen, Buddhist, etc. But they would make us "sit in zazen" and pretend like we were meditating.

As some of these good preachy folks were screwing each other behind the pews and otherwise not living up to their own ideals, I became a bit frustrated with the hypocrisy (I wasn't being judgemental of them, but was tired of them judging me). I pointed out to the senior sensei one day that they were engaging in a strictly Buddhist activity by "sitting in zazen." I further pointed out that during my shodan promotion ceremony, when they had us sitting in zazen and were going around whacking us with a kyosaku that they were engaging in a purely pagan ritual totally of Zen Buddhist origin, and as a Buddhist I was a bit miffed that they were not adhering to the required Buddhist protocols.

They barely tolerated me in that dojo.

Jeff Cook

I went to a Christian school for a short time and had issues although I am Christian. What really bothered me was the insubordinate amount of time spent on how not to be Buddhist or Zen...etc. I don't know how to be a Buddhist, I'm not going to accidentally become one meditating, sitting a certain way, or putting someone in an arm bar. I have also noticed I don't turn Muslim while washing the dishes. I lack the knowledge of and devotion to those religions for that to happen.

I guess it bothered me that they spent so much time showing us what not to do instead of spending all the time showing us what to do.

~Rob

[Jonathan Randall]

I went to a Christian school for a short time and had issues although I am Christian. What really bothered me was the insubordinate amount of time spent on how not to be Buddhist or Zen...etc. I don't know how to be a Buddhist, I'm not going to accidentally become one meditating, sitting a certain way, or putting someone in an arm bar. I have also noticed I don't turn Muslim while washing the dishes. I lack the knowledge of and devotion to those religions for that to happen.

I guess it bothered me that they spent so much time showing us what not to do instead of spending all the time showing us what to do.

~Rob

I had the same experience.

"By their works you shall know them."

If many Christian churches spent as much time trying to be lights, as they do judges, there would not be the current backlash against them, imho.

Show what you stand for. Attempt to live it, and others will inquire as to your faith. Walk around screaming against others and people will run from you and your faith.

[CEB]

FWIW .... What you are taught to do in Buddhist meditation is directly opposed to Christian Church teaching and always has been. That is what the rub is.

However in many cases churches in the west do not seem to understand the theology of why that is. Since the 15th century the Western Church has become so fractured and splintered there is no consistency in teaching across the population necessary to reinforce within the laymen what the teaching of the Church is. People often no longer understand the faith so they reinvent the faith to suit their personal idea of God. You can't be both Buddhist and Christian as the Church would teach.

But I'm just a farmboy from Illinois.

[Webmaster]

Please don't argue with me without stating your credentials.

How about your credentials?

I see why you've been launched from several websites... inability to control what comes out of your keyboard.

Folks are entitled to their opinions, as are you, but based on having grown up in a Christian church, I agree with Ed. The two religions are not compatible. I am sure that any number of our dedicated Christians will also add to this discussion. However, don't take my word for it, Ed's word for it, or even your minister's word on it, go to the source; The Bible. If you can find someplace where The Bible states that you can have two religions, then knock yourself out. Ultimately though, you won't be answering to any of us if you are mistaken.

Meanwhile, here's a place to start some personal research:

http://www.gospelway.com/religiousgroups/buddhism.php