Standard Kumite - a waste of time!!!!!

[Hack Foo Doe]

All,

I personally think that the type of sparring, kumite and competitions that follow Standard WKF, WKA etc rules are a waste of time. The "types" of Competitions I have seen advertised in which I would be disqualified in within the opening seconds. Also the fact that no thigh kicks are allowed either. This is also the reason why Other Martial Artists consider Karate as a "Soft" art.

In Boxing Bouts, it is continuous striking. Imagine a Boxing bout where once one fight has hit the other the bout is stopped they are re-centralised for the bout to begin again. You’d think this was stupid and unrealistic. So why do we "allow" it in Karate.

The One Strike = One Point Rule is useless, I've never seen this happen in a bar brawl or on a street where to "fighters" have hit once then the "fight" stopped and they restart again

Non-Contact - again this is useless especially if its 1 strike = 1 point rules, usually it’s the bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of Kumite. How many times have you heard of someone breaking their wrist/foot the first time they've hit someone in a real fight. To me Non-Contact is the same as performing Kata. Board breaking - well I've never got into a fight with a piece of wood.

Semi-Contact - This is getting there as long as its not bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of Kumite. I tend to use this type of Kumite for my Kids. Its more street realistic and gives Karateka an Idea of what a street confrontation would be like. Again I would compare this to Kata Bunkai classes

Full Contact or "knockdown" - This type of tournament competition is closer to "real life" personal combat, although it still in a tournament setting with rules. There is definitely no bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of fighter in this type of kumite. Also Full contact is allowed all over the body (except the joints, groin and face, in Kyokushin and Ashihara and Enshin etc, as these are such an easy targets to hit and as it is full contact concussion or fractures may occur). This style of kumite, often, they don't award any points for controlled techniques delivered to the opponent. In fact, they usually don't award points for full-force techniques delivered to the opponent either. Instead, points are only awarded for knocking, sweeping, or throwing your opponent to the floor. Kyokushinkai and its "offshoot" karate organizations are the styles usually known to promote knockdown tournament rules.


I look forward to your responses

OSU

[DragonMind]

Competition is a sport with its own rules and strategies. No one says that tournaments are supposed to emulate a street attack. No kind of simulation, be it a tournament or a dojo, can provide total realism. If you wanted a tournament to run like a street assault, I'd get to use a steel pipe on your head or I'd be allowed to hurt you in the parking lot with my blade or a gun. THAT'S reality.

[Tony Dismukes]

Competition is a sport with its own rules and strategies. No one says that tournaments are supposed to emulate a street attack. No kind of simulation, be it a tournament or a dojo, can provide total realism. If you wanted a tournament to run like a street assault, I'd get to use a steel pipe on your head or I'd be allowed to hurt you in the parking lot with my blade or a gun. THAT'S reality.

This is true, but ...

The question is not whether tournament competition is a fully accurate simulation of a street attack. The question is whether sparring and competition are useful training experiences in preparing a martial artist for a real violent encounter. In other words, if you spend x amount of your training time sparring or competing, will that lead you to do a) better, b) worse, or c) the same in a real fight compared to how you might have performed in that same situation without having spent the time sparring or competing.

In my opinion, the answer depends on the rules and on the attitude and experience of the practitioners. There are many aspects to this, but I'll just toss out a few thoughts. (These relate only to the training purposes I mentioned above. If you're competing in tournaments for sporting reasons, then all that counts is whether you're having fun doing it.)

Sparring with no contact and stopping to reset after each point is pretty much useless. In fact, it may have negative value, making you worse prepared for a fight than if you didn't spar at all.

Medium/light contact sparring with continuous flow can be pretty useful. It's more useful if you've also done some full-contact sparring so you understand proper ranging and body mechanics.

Hard-contact sparring like the Kyokushin guys do is useful not only for developing timing, distancing, and reflexes, but also for developing mental toughness so you don't freak out when you get hit in a real fight.

The occasional competition can be useful because it tends to produce more of an adrenaline dump than you would usually get when sparring in your home dojo. Learning to control that adrenaline is a useful thing. The downside is that you have the danger of starting to develop habits which take advantage of the rules for sporting advantage, but which would get you killed in a real fight.

Almost all sparring has the downside that it can get you thinking about fighting in terms of symmetrical, one-on-one competition between willing participants. If you drop into that mindset in a real-life encounter, it can lead to bad things. To avoid this trap, I'd suggest supplementing your training with scenario-based training oriented towards practical survival objectives. For example, you could start out with one participant hving been "knocked down" by a surprise attack and give him or her the objective of getting up and making it out the exit while multiple attackers take potshots.

[JWhiteSensei]

I agree 100% with Tony. If you can, see if you can find clips of Seito Shito-Ryu's Taikai tournament. There are probably a few on YouTube (I can't get YouTube here at work so I can't be certain)

[DragonMind]

Tony, my point is that no form of rules based competition will prepare you for the realities of street violence. I'm not talking about your drunken bar brawl -- for which your examples would probably suffice -- but rather the violence and mayhem of a real assault with multiple opponents all of whom are armed and engaging in pack behavior or a sexual-sadist rape. Violent criminals simply don't play by ANY rules so training with rules will not prepare you. Take your scenario with the student already down. Will the opponents be using steel-toed boots and attempting to crush the skull of the victim? No. Your "victim" has the inherent knowledge that the worst that will happen is a few bruises and therefore never faces the reality of an assault. Tournaments are fun and basically a game. Enjoy them for what they are but let's not kid ourselves that it even approaches reality or prepares us for much beyond that game.

[Tony Dismukes]

Barry, by your logic, no form of training could ever help prepare for a violent assault, since all training (sparring, forms, solo drills, two-person drills, bagwork, scenario training, etc) has rules and no training is a perfect simulation of real violence.

Is that really what you think?

If so, I'll have to strongly disagree. Just to give an example, if you engage in some form of training (such as hard-contact sparring) which mentally conditions you to stay calm and keep going when you get hit hard, then you will likely do better in a violent encounter than you would if you had no experience getting hit and just panicked or froze up the first time you ate a punch to the head. No, it's not any kind of guarantee, it's just a matter of improving your odds.

As a side note, I think it's probably a mistake to characterize all "real assaults" as typically involving gangs of armed, bloodthirsty sociopaths. Yes, such incidents do occur. No, most people will never encounter, or even witness in person, such an attack. If you ever are attacked by such a gang, you better hope your training includes situational awareness and sprinting. Statistically speaking, an assault is more likely to come from a drunken neighbor, a pissed-off girlfriend, an abusive husband, a mentally ill family member, a garden-variety bully (who may not even know how to fight for real), or any number of others who are less lethal than the previously mentioned armed sociopaths.

[Hack Foo Doe]

All,

I am in awe of all you comments and input into this topic, I agree that each type of Kumite does have its purpose in each individual's training/journey through the way. To me the levels of Kumite should be treated as the are just levels of training Non-contact for the Lower Mudansha, to Semi-Contact for the Higher Mudansha to Lower Yudansha to Full Contact/Knockdown for the Middle to Senior Yudansha with the "one strike = stop" rule completely removed from ALL types of kumite.

If we look at 99% of most people's reason for first joining a Karate School............To learn self defence, amongst other things, so are we not failing them as Instructors is we do not prepare them for the "event" if it ever happens? This is why we get people saying Karate doesn't work, because of the Tippy tappy bouncy bouncy one hit one point sparring that we do in some styles.

To me the 100-, 200- and 300-man Kumites that are done in Kyokushin and Ashihara and Enshin are as already state as an achievement of oneself not to prove how "Hard" one is.

I have already taken part in a 20-man Kumite (20 x 5 mins of continual fighting no water breaks) and to finish it was an awesome feeling, We all congratulated each other and had a beer after.

I hope to compete in a 30 man in the next few years

Self-defence Techniques are Rubbish too as if we all practiced the bunkai of the kata we practice we wouldn't need them. I teach bunkai in my school and I have had Jujitsu practitioner asked where is it I got the Jujitsu techniques from. I said "Real Karate" is always like this.

[JWhiteSensei]

All,

I am in awe of all you comments and input into this topic, I agree that each type of Kumite does have its purpose in each individual's training/journey through the way. To me the levels of Kumite should be treated as the are just levels of training Non-contact for the Lower Mudansha, to Semi-Contact for the Higher Mudansha to Lower Yudansha to Full Contact/Knockdown for the Middle to Senior Yudansha with the "one strike = stop" rule completely removed from ALL types of kumite.

If we look at 99% of most people's reason for first joining a Karate School............To learn self defence, amongst other things, so are we not failing them as Instructors is we do not prepare them for the "event" if it ever happens? This is why we get people saying Karate doesn't work, because of the Tippy tappy bouncy bouncy one hit one point sparring that we do in some styles.

To me the 100-, 200- and 300-man Kumites that are done in Kyokushin and Ashihara and Enshin are as already state as an achievement of oneself not to prove how "Hard" one is.

I have already taken part in a 20-man Kumite (20 x 5 mins of continual fighting no water breaks) and to finish it was an awesome feeling, We all congratulated each other and had a beer after.

I hope to compete in a 30 man in the next few years

Self-defence Techniques are Rubbish too as if we all practiced the bunkai of the kata we practice we wouldn't need them. I teach bunkai in my school and I have had Jujitsu practitioner asked where is it I got the Jujitsu techniques from. I said "Real Karate" is always like this.

Excellent! And thank you VERY much for the comment on bunkai.

[kbarrett]

When is comings to sparring I feel there should be some contact, how much contact is up to the instuctor, I also feel competition dose help in it's own way. And it really depends on who's running the tournament and the rules that they follow, some will allow contact, but it must be controlled, others will not allow any contact.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[poetic misjustice]

How useful training is on the streets is up to the student, by entering a brawl with the mindset of rules and regulationg of one hit stop start sparring s/he will definately be beaten to a bloody pulp, or with too much faith on dojo trained skills, the same result, but by enteringa bar brawl fully aware that it is a no holds barred slugfest and using your training to your advantage it can be very useful.

But then again an instructor has to stress that these mechanics of in dojo training and sparring are null and void outside so if a student has a dojo mentality isn't the instructor remiss in his responsibilities.

If you are aiming to prepare you're students completely for brawling then you may as well throw some rebar and steel pipes in the middle of a hall and say "help yourself lads, last one standing wins" every session.

[doubleouch]

Don't know personally what's going on in karate circles these days. I happened to catch a tournament on TV recently which is unusual. It was karate although I can't remember the organization or tournament. Very light contact only. In fact if you kicked your partner with too heavy contact the guy you kicked got the points! I watched one match where one guy kicked the other guy 3 times in the head and lost 3-0. All points were awarded to his opponent for heavy contact. The contact on the shots was very light. Not enough to even turn the guy's head. It was bizarre to watch. The "winner" didn't land one blow.

[repz]

I see kumite as very valuable, and with many arts have both bad and good, but the positive attributes born from this type of training can supplement many arts. I come from a kickboxing background, and you would figure I would dissaprove of kumite, but I dont, here is my reasons why.

-Kumite is like a snap shot of the tense and action packed part of a match. That part I will title the entry of the action, break down a round of continious sparring, and its several snap shots of this "entry and defense" mixed with minutes of figuring out the fighter (kumite does this too, but at a faster pace), and pacing around the ring and calculating the time per round. Kumite, is effectively where the action is, with less of this downtime. When thinking of a self defense situation, this downtime is unreal, the entry and attack should be quick for many obvious reasons from avoiding witnesses to eliminating a threat or threat(s) in a quick manner to allow one to escape, you dont want to box someone, you want to land your shots and keep moving. Note, this is more a fighting style than karate, there are many boxers and kickboxers who move in and out effectively and evasively that seem like they are performing kumite in the ring.

-Theres more attention to precision and timing in these split seconds, because the name of the game is these attributes. Look at Machida in the UFC, he goes in and out and remains calm, hes known for his timing and precision. It seems hes doing point karate in a continious enviornment, thats why people have a hard time figuring him out, because he has a different game going on, and its working for him.

-Points are death in kumite. This makes born the notion that every hit is dangerous, as opposed to continous sparring where huge padded gloves absorb the damage and it makes you feel that you can take a few shots to work inside. In a self defense standpoint, that is not the way to approach a situation, especially where points change to knife swipes and grabs while his friend waits to pound on you once you lose your footing.

-I cant speak for all karate tourneys, but in shotokan you only get the point for near perfect form. This promotes less sloppiness. Also, if all factors from target area, to stance, to body mechanics in shifting, are working in place, and you deliver this same blow with the same precision and timing with no gloves to a human face, then chances are its going to really hurt the guy. Also, kumite does look continious, atleast in shotokan, you will throw 4 to 5 strikes and you dont stop until the judges agreed one of those strikes was good enough, you dont throw one and tag him for the point and wait for the pt, you need all the factors mentioned to get a nod from a judge, which can take many exchanges of blows.

Obviously theres the bad. Some kumite matches are tag. I seen one dude hold his hand in front of him charging like an idiot. That was his battering ram attack? Points should be given to perfect form like in shotokan. I do believe the contact should be upped a bit, and sometimes they are, but some tourneys give pts when they are many inches off.

Maybe strap more gear and allow full contact like in fencing?

With kumite training, when i go back into kickboxing i am more evasive and treat every coming strike as a lost if he hits me. They rarely touch me, and my timing and precision is better.

[swdw]

Some interesting reading that also offers some viewpoints this issue is Michael Rosenbaum's "Comprehensive Karate". His views on the history and development of karate and the division between the self defense and tournament aspects are an insightful read.

You can download it as a free e-book here:
http://www.iainabernethy.com/Compreh..._Rosenbaum.asp

[kbarrett]

My feeling is this, no matter what martial art you train in there needs to be some kind of sparring, and there should be some contact, how much depends on the instructor and the two people sparring.

Prearranged drill will only carry you so far, free sparring with a partner is where you'll learn the timing, and gain the reflexes you'll need in the real world.

I really enjoy sparring more than any else, with in my martial art.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[TonyU]

You can download it as a free e-book here:
http://www.iainabernethy.com/Compreh..._Rosenbaum.asp

It's probably a good read. Unfortunately when I see anything with Ian Abernathy's name attached to anything it immediately turns me off.

[repz]

One hit knockouts arent as uncommon as the OP posted. Hitting someone with one good shot ungloved straight in the face can result in a knockout, I HAVE seen tons of people drop with one to two hits in bar settings and street fights. Theres no gloves to cushion the impact in the street. And good tournament fights only reward a point when technique is near perfect, usually to the face, and when all factors are in motion an its thrown to a face with no aborsption it will seriously disable the attacker in any setting.

I actually disagree with kyokushin fighting. It promotes standing there taking shots completely ignoring punches with no hand to head contact, yet hands to the head (punches) are the most common attack and common target in every sport and in every street fight by both trained and untrained people. It promotes a stand there and take punishment concept, like a tank, yet they ignore the most common technique and target (punches to the head). When you add punches to the face the game gets more complicated and new stratgies and defenses change dramatically. I'd rather focus on footwork and evasion, and yes, individual attacks as tho i am staying evasive and mobile. Besides, self defense is about stopping the situation and evasion (to avoid weapons, to avoid being ganged up by a group of people), standing there in a war of attrition is not, being mobile, fast and relying on footwork and direct hits is. I used to take oyama karate for a bit and thats pretty much my take on that sport (though I love the style and its a great transition to kickboxing).

I'd prefer kickboxing adding as supplemental training for both examples. Seems like point karate is about footwork, speed and evasion and kyokushin is about conditioning and power, might as well combine both and use it in kickboxing.

[kbarrett]

You'll actually find that just about every karate style allows contact to the body and not the face; jujutsu students will apply joint locks with out really breaking the arm, chokes will be applied with out really choking the fellow student out.

It dosen't mean they can't, it's simply mean their taking great care not to hurt their follow partner, karate styles like kyokushin feel that it's safer not to allow face contact, the body can take a good amount of contact, the face can't. But rest a sure that there are many time when two karate students are sparring that face contact happens, they show respect to each other deal with the face contact and keep right on sparring.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[repz]

You'll actually find that just about every karate style allows contact to the body and not the face; jujutsu students will apply joint locks with out really breaking the arm, chokes will be applied with out really choking the fellow student out.

It dosen't mean they can't, it's simply mean their taking great care not to hurt their follow partner, karate styles like kyokushin feel that it's safer not to allow face contact, the body can take a good amount of contact, the face can't. But rest a sure that there are many time when two karate students are sparring that face contact happens, they show respect to each other deal with the face contact and keep right on sparring.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

I dont doubt that, just like the original poster said habits of pulling before contact can build bad habits, and I dont believe so much in every case, since kumite matches have atleast 2 knockdowns a fight from a face punch and most punches and kicks to the stomach are at full power.

But, when a style emphasis taking punishment and completly ignores punches, let alone never defends from them and never trains to see a hand reaching their face it becomes an issue. Since it becomes a style that ignores the most common attack and believes that taking punishment to give punishment is effective yet there is a big missing "part" of the equation, where the face cant take punishment, so they need to defend against it which they dont unless its a high kick, its creating a list of conflicting theories plus training. I trained in Oyama, which is an offshoot, we did train on days titled, "fight technique" which addressed the flaw in the sport, it was kickboxing ruled, many kyokushin schools do this as well, but 90 percent of it is still trained the same.

As far as jujitsu, i am sure they train to defend from face punches, so I dont know why you used that as an example. I was comparing both sports, not disagreeing with being courteous. And i dont agree with "most karate styles avoid face contact", we are talking about sports competition, not drills on everyday training in the dojo, only kyokushin and their offshots avoid face shots due to wanting to be a bare knuckle punishment match.

I prefer kyokushin style, with their punches and alternate kicks, they are very powerful. I have always been mistaken for kyokushin due to my kickboxing background, and i fit in while i was there. I just dont agree with the OP about kyokushin sport sparring being better. Tag kumite isnt perfect either by a long shot, but I dont see it as a waste, look at machidas fight style, the way hes evasive and pulls out a few punches and goes back for defense, he wouldnt have been the same if he trained another way, its the reason why vitor belfort is taking up shotokan right now to boost his fighting even tho hes a boxer and former mma champion.

Regardless, full contact kickboxing would be the ultimate "patch" to fit in both holes in these sports. The kyokushin would still be a tank, eating damage but dishing out even more in return, and the point fighter would be evasive moving in and out relying on speed, we see both examples in k1 and mma right now.

[kbarrett]

I just just feel there been to much made about not punching to the face, just because they don't dosen't mean they can't, that all I'm going to say about this subject.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Hack Foo Doe]

Very impressed with the responses to my question. Thank you all.

I agree, with Ken B, regards punching to the face. We don't but we see the openings. In Ashihara and Enshin (not too sure about Kyokushin) strikes to the side of the face ARE allowed.

Every Kata we teach has atleast 2 defences from a strike to the face so it is installed as a defence.

OSU