Small Dilemma

[Don Roley]

Background part 1

I have been training in martial arts since disco was popular but I have always been a student until last summer. The idea of my mistakes possibly getting someone killed does not appeal to me. Despite that, for that last 15 years while I trained in Japan I was frequently told about how my teachers were teaching us to repay the debt they had to their teachers in passing on the art. For Japan, that is not a very subtle hint.

As the time for me to move back to America came closer and closer, I got more and more pressure put on me to teach when I got back. The art I do has a lot of quality control issues and the head of it is trying to get more students to come back to Japan and check their basics instead of going off in other directions. I have been told that of all the people living in America, I am the one with the most time and experience living and training in Japan. The pressure from the Japanese teachers I had to teach the way they want the art to be taught got pretty intense.

Background part 2

Most of the reason that the quality of the art I do is so spotty outside of Japan is due to the actions of an early student of the art that wanted to set himself up commercially. He was one of the first to bring the art to America but spent only about a year training in Japan before launching his career. To keep control and cash flowing in he did things like convince folks that the head of the art in Japan was not accepting anymore students. To cover his gaps of knowledge he borrowed things from books and videos and when differences in the way he did things and the way the teachers in Japan were doing things became obvious he spread the story that the Japanese had watered down the art since his time there to appeal to the masses.

To say the head of my art got mad about a lot of this stuff is like saying the Titanic had some problems on its first voyage.

In Japan, direct confrontations and airing complaints and dirty laundry out in public is very frowned upon. Instead of denouncing this American, the head of the art told almost everyone visiting Japan about how he felt in private. Not only are the American's actions seen as a stab in the back, but the changes he made to the art to cover up his gaps of knowledge might look the same as what is being done in Japan but will lead students off the track. It may seem subtle in differences, but a few degrees off at the start of a journey can lead people off hundreds of miles and after a long time of learning what the American does people tend to view the Japanese stuff through the same lenses and can't see the differences. So the head of my art announced publicly that he did not want his students training with or under "former students."

It may seem silly to folks, but here is some examples of the type of thing the American did. Since most people going to Japan heard from the head of the art that the American had not learned the things he claimed from the Japanese, was not considered a student anymore and had not bothered to show up for any more training in years, the American denounced these stories as rumors spread by jealous people and showed up to a session in Japan unannounced. Since the Japanese are not big on direct confrontations and were not prepared for him showing up, he got through a class. He was ignored and his mistakes were not corrected, and the Japanese prepared to take him aside the next time and take him to task in private. But he did not show up for another session. Instead he flew home and posted pictures of him in the Japanese dojo as "proof" that he was still on good terms with the head of my art.

This made the Japanese mad at being manipulated. They still did not make a public announcement like I would have, but they did not like being made a ***** by someone who knows they won't say anything and takes advantage of it.

A few years ago, the American tried the same stunt again because the Japanese had really started telling folks what they thought of him. This time the Japanese were ready for him and announced he would be joining them for a meal afterwords. He was taken aside after class and told that he was no longer welcome and that they wanted him to stop using the name of our art and portraying himself as doing what the Japanese were teaching. If he had announced he had to move on and do his own thing in the name of making a modernized art for today's streets instead of staying with our art, the Japanese would be happy with it.

Instead, a few days later he wrote on the internet how he had a pleasant meal with the head of the art and how they were still friends and the Japanese fully supported him.

Upon hearing this, the head of my art hit the roof and did a very extreme thing for a Japanese- he ordered the American's name taken down from the board listing students in front of an entire class. In the context of Japanese culture, that is a bigger move than if I screamed at someone on ABC news.

Of course the American has tried to cover over this. He claims he has never been told directly by the head of my art that he is out and has even spread rumors that his name was taken down by jealous non-Japanese living in Japan. The head of my art still will not make a public announcement naming this person but has stepped up making public statements that he does not want people who train with him to also train with "former students" or their organizations. In private, they let it all out and I heard quite a bit of anger from them during my years in Japan. From a Japanese standpoint, they think of people that would train with the American knowing what he has done roughly like most of us would a friend who associated with someone who had raped our sister. They may not scream at people that do so, instead ignoring them when they could correct mistakes and not filling their role as a teacher. However, I have heard all about the issue and know that the head of my art does not want me training someone who also trains in the American's organization.

To summarize the rather long background, I am only teaching because all the teachers in Japan want me to but I know the head of my art does not want me teaching folks that would also train with the American.

My problem is that I just had a student join me and he seems like an honest person. He has only been to two sessions but after the last one over beers he talked about how he was also training with the American's organization.

Oops.

He seems unaware of the situation between the American and the head of my art.

One thing is clear to me, I can't show respect to my teacher in Japan if I teach this guy while he supports the American. And I only am teaching to show respect to my teachers in Japan.

I could tell him about the situation and let him decide if he wants to train with me, or if he would rather train with the American's organization. I don't really like that option. It seems like I am going to control the student.

Right now I am leaning towards the idea of telling him that I don't think he will work out with my training group and turn him away. But I also have problems with that course of action.

On one hand, if I tell him the situation and give him a choice then I feel I am being somewhat manipulative. On the other, if I turn him away like this I feel like I am taking away his right to know and choose.

I am throwing this out for other insight and opinions before I meet with the guy again.

[Webmaster]

Without naming any names, you did a good job of summarizing the issues. My take is very simple, explain the situation and tell him to make his choice. No other alternatives would be acceptable under the circumstances despite your hesitance to do so. To turn him away under false pretense would not be right, and he needs information so that he can make an informed decision. You need to be crystal clear that he has no other choices available to him. You should also point out up front that there will be many things being taught that are different from what he has learned, and if he wants to train with you, then the waza are done the way you teach, and not how he was previously taught or how he thinks they should be done.

Good luck on resolving this Don and let us know how it works out.

[jwinch2]

I agree with the others on this one. It seems to me that you have no choice but to be honest about the situation. Turning someone away as a student without explanation is wrong and should not even be a legitimate option on the table in my view. Furthermore, per your writing, the student seems like a good guy. Why should he be punished when he is simply ignorant of a situation that is taking place half-way around the world? If you truly wish to honor your teachers, this seems like a golden opportunity to take someone who is on what they would feel is the wrong path, and guide him towards their perception of the correct one.

As a related thought, have you tried at all explaining to the head of your style that things are different in terms of culture in America and that if they seriously want people to stop training with someone, doing it behind closed doors might not get it done? I know, that isn't how things are handled in Japan. I get that, I really do. However, their problems are stemming from an American, the situation is happening in America, and the students they are worried training with whom they perceive to be the wrong person are American. Trying to handle it as they would in Japan doesn't give them a great likelihood of success. If I wanted to affect change in another country, it would behoove me to have knowledge of how things are done there, so that I might A) be effective, and B) handle things in a culturally appropriate manner.

I know you are likely uncomfortable with this idea, but this situation may give you a good opportunity to have this conversation with your teachers and provide some insight and perspective as their "eyes on the ground" here in America.

Just my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em as you like.

[Tony Dismukes]

I think that letting the student know the situation and make up his own mind is the decent and honest thing to do.

Mind you, I'm very much not a fan of the whole "if you train with Instructor A then you're not welcome to train with Instructor B" approach, regardless of the history behind it. It goes against my whole philosophy of what training and learning are about. However, I understand that you're trying to be respectful of your instructor's wishes.

Edit - on preview, I really like Jason's suggestion:

As a related thought, have you tried at all explaining to the head of your style that things are different in terms of culture in America and that if they seriously want people to stop training with someone, doing it behind closed doors might not get it done? I know, that isn't how things are handled in Japan. I get that, I really do. However, their problems are stemming from an American, the situation is happening in America, and the students they are worried about are American also. If I wanted to affect change in another country, it would behoove me to have knowledge of how things are done there, so that I might A) be effective, and B) handle things in a culturally appropriate manner.

[Don Roley]

As a related thought, have you tried at all explaining to the head of your style that things are different in terms of culture in America and that if they seriously want people to stop training with someone, doing it behind closed doors might not get it done?

Others have tried. No luck. He lives in Japan and has to live within the Japanese culture. One of my teachers pointed out that what he does has to reflect that or the people who he associates with in Japan will treat him like we would treat someone who goes down the street making obscene suggestions to women. There are some cultures where that is acceptable still.

I can point to many examples of where people have lied and said they were students of a martial art in Japan and the Japanese would say nothing at all. The ones that make a stink are those of us who have lived in Japan, know the real story and cause trouble on the internet. The Japanese just will not tear down someone in public, and there are a few people who have taken advantage of that.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think Don that honesty is always the best policy so I agree with everyone else that you should just explain the situation. Then the student can make up there mind and either train or move on. I can remember someone training in Budo Taijutsu that was an instructor and was teaching but failing to charge and give his students their membership cards. I can remember my good friend relaying the story how they being a couple of senior practitioners (Shidoshi and Shihan respectively) told him the problem and that he needed to make correction and bring everyone into the fold. He did not at first and paid a price. Eventually though he made sure that all of his students were Bujinkan members and in the end it worked out great. Bottom line, be honest, be firm in your resolve and in the end you can live with yourself very well!

[Abbax8]

I suggest that you have no choice but to tell him the truth, and he has no choice but to train your way or leave. You can do so as diplomatically as possible, but what I have read that seems to be the case.

Peace

Dennis

[Badjer]

From a Japanese standpoint, they think of people that would train with the American knowing what he has done roughly like most of us would a friend who associated with someone who had raped our sister.

I think the important thing that you said here is the presumption that everyone training with the "American" is aware of what he has done. However, not everyone is aware of what he has done. Or the fact that he is teaching differently then your teachers.
I, for one, was unaware of a lot of the history of ninjitsu and most of my knowledge has come from your posts here at Budoseek. I believe it might be common knowledge to a lot of folk in the ninjitsu circles but not for those outside of the circles.
My point is it sounds like your perspective student might be unaware and you should inform him. I agree with the others here that you should give him all of the facts since I think it would be a bit unfair to kick him out without even being aware of why he was being kicked out. This way he can make a choice of his choosing with all the facts and not just the "American's" slant on the facts.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers!

[DragonMind]

Don, the flaw in your logic is the conclusion that telling him the truth and presenting his only legitimate options is somehow manipulative. If your motive were to ensure that he remains with you, offering him a choice is not the way to accomplish that. The manipulation lies in the use of dishonest information to persuade a particular course of action. Not telling him the truth is manipulation. Do the honorable thing and let him make his decision with all of the facts at his disposal.

[wingchundo.girl]

The whole situation sounds like a Catch 22.

Also part of your description regarding a former student going out and claiming full sanctioning or certification mimics so many other situations in the martial arts world and with so many styles that it is an age old story and will continue to happen far into the future.

It sounds, if I read between the lines, that you feel very uncomfortable in this situation, a situation that you were pressured into. It's hard to say no to such a request, especially from your teachers.

It sort of ties your hands.

It sets up a somewhat negative way of dealing with people in a way. You have to pass each prospective student through a filter, inform them of the problematic situation, and then ask them to make a choice between one or another, it like putting him in the same uncomfortable position you are in.

I don't see the win-win in this situation. It's like involving someone in a family fight. Who wants that? Then if the other organization gets wind of your statements, then well, it may feel that they need to attack your credibility. Of course a lot of instructors can stay above all of this and know how to respond or not respond depending on the situation. You may find that it's not as hard as it seems.

Be honest and professional with everyone involved. The students, the organization, and with yourself. Is this the way you want it?

[Jonathan Randall]

There is another possibility to consider and that is to give him a quick rundown of the basic facts - the other teacher is no longer a member in good standing with your current organization and the head of your system does not permit crosstraining in the two any longer. Then say that is the basic situation, and if he is interested in hearing more about the why's, direct him to one of your threads - but let him make the exploration. This dodges any question of you purposely getting into political issues with him. Yes, he can't train at both, per regulations, but you'd rather he make up his own mind and that you don't feel it is appropriate to go into a long, laundry list with him in your dojo.

IMHO, many of the original Ninjutsu folks in the U.S. were real clowns and often came off as such in their Black Belt Magazine ads and articles. One even called himself "The King of Combat" - as if he were from the WWF, lol.

[AllanJGAnderson]

This sounds awfully familiar. Remenicient of a self described 'Master' Hayes.

[Jeff C.]

Don, I agree with everyone, particularly with Barry's post. You are a straight-up guy. Be straight-up and let him make his choice. You aren't making it for him. You don't like how the Japanese handle the situation within the context of Japanese society. Unless you are trying to create a bunch of mindless Japanophile followers, handle it within the context of your own society. At least you would be respecting free choice by presenting the facts and leaving it up to him.

You are over-thinking it in my opinion - but I understand why. You are an honorable man.

Jeff Cook

[Erik]

Don, the flaw in your logic is the conclusion that telling him the truth and presenting his only legitimate options is somehow manipulative.

Yup.

And

You are over-thinking it in my opinion - but I understand why. You are an honorable man.

Just tell him the facts, politely, and welcome him if he wants to join your group.

Be aware that there may be a little backlash from the other trainer. May not be an issue, but be ready.

[Jonathan Randall]

Don, I agree with everyone, particularly with Barry's post. You are a straight-up guy. Be straight-up and let him make his choice. You aren't making it for him. You don't like how the Japanese handle the situation within the context of Japanese society. Unless you are trying to create a bunch of mindless Japanophile followers, handle it within the context of your own society. At least you would be respecting free choice by presenting the facts and leaving it up to him.

You are over-thinking it in my opinion - but I understand why. You are an honorable man.

Jeff Cook

Strongly agreed there.

It sucks to be caught in the crossfire of a messy political situation.

[Don Roley]

Here we go again.......

I just got an e-mail from someone outside of Colorado but planning on moving here. He is without a teacher now and is going through the home DVD black belt course the American is putting out.

Advice on how to tell him is appreciated. Should I wait until we can meet in person so as to be able to make it easier with the face to face approach? Or is that somewhat like teasing him and pulling him along? On one side, telling him face to face seems the best option. On the other, stringing him along until he gets here seems rather cold.

There is a good chance that he would drop the home study coarse since he would now have access to a real teacher. And there is another group in the area that really does not seem to care about what the Japanese do and want done with the art that he can train with if I turn him down.

So input is requested on when to tell this guy the choice he will have to make.

I have a newsletter to put out tomorrow that gets quiet a few Bujinkan people outside of the state reading it. I think I will take the time today to add in an article explaining the situation.

[torbjork]

Advice on how to tell him is appreciated. Should I wait until we can meet in person so as to be able to make it easier with the face to face approach?

Personally, I find that stuff like this is easier to discuss in person than via phone or (god forbid) email, as you can gauge the reactions of the other guy much better face to face.

Since he's moving there anyway, I'd wait to tell him until he's in your dojo and you can perhaps show him rather than tell him - ask him to demonstrate technique, correct it, explain the differences and so on. See if he can be salvaged.

Then you can tell him the political situation and how it will impact his training. Remember, you're not Japanese (and don't live in Japan any longer) so you can be as direct as you like when dealing with the situation.

I don't think that'd be stringing someone along, unless he's thinking of moving because he's got the idea that you will promote him quicker than the American will...

By the way, in my book you are doing the right thing if you're vacuuming up any good guys that started training with the bad guys, that way the sh*t teachers will end up with only the sh*t students

[Jeff C.]

Don, put yourself in his shoes. When would you want to be told?

Jeff Cook

[Abbax8]

Don,
This is just my personal take. I actually hate talking about difficult things on the phone. I much prefer to deal with people face to face.

As a middle ground, you could tell him in an e-mail that from your experience in Japan and what you know of the DVD study course that there are some serious discrepancies. That way you have planted the idea that what you teach is not necessarily what the DVD is teaching. Also there's the whole teacher's eyes on you while you practice approach.

Dennis

[Don Roley]

Thanks for the replies. I feel much better about not laying things out until (if) he gets here. I too feel that these sorts of things should be discussed face to face.

I just sent him an e-mail telling him a little about how and why we trained. I emphasized that I teach because the Japanese teachers I had want me to help spread Hatsumi's art as he wants it taught and I warned him that I turn down more people than I accept. I told him the truth, that I am looking to train people I think will be teaching 20 years from now in the manner Japan wants and turn down those many in order to devote more time to a small cadre of students. I have less than ten people at classes, three of whom come from an hour away and another who has about a two and a half hour drive to get to me. I let him know I prefer to give individual attention to devoted students like that than have a larger group.
I hope this kind of warns him that it is not assured that he will be accepted and he won't burn any bridges. There are other Bujinkan teachers in Colorado and maybe he will end up with one of them instead. My main concern was that if I did not tell him immediately he may count on training with me. Now I think he will keep other options open.

Thanks for the advice and insight. It really helped a lot.