ATA vs WTF vs ITF

[torbjork]

... Doesn't the organization have some sort of quality control standards to ensure their reputation isn't damaged by member schools?

Which organization?
The WTF has no standard for black belts whatsoever, because it is solely concerned with being a sports organization. The Kukkiwon sets the standard for awarding Kukkiwon dan rank, which is required for competing in WTF events, but it's very much a minimum standard, consisting of 8 forms from white to black belt, a few basic techniques contained within those forms, sparring, and simple breaking. Individual schools/clubs can add to that minimum if they want.

With the emphasis on Olympic sparring within Kukki-style TKD, it shouldn't be surprising that many of the actively competing black belts know the forms and other non-sparring stuff badly or not at all - especially at the world/Olympic champion level. They simply don't have time to focus on anything besides sparring within the rule set, focusing on a low number of high-scoring techniques. The competitors who specialize in forms frequently suck in sparring.

Noncompeting Kukkiwon black belts often are a lot more well-rounded in their skill sets in my experience, however I've seen some incredibly bad performances at rank tests by noncompetitors as well as competitors.

[Dark Mage]

The ATA has grappling, sword sparring, "olympic" style continuous sparring, tag sparring, weapons forms, empty hand forms, MMA, XMA, krav maga, ifthere is a way for the ATA to make money off teaching something they do. And no matter what it is they are doing, they are doing it poorly.

The amount of extra-curricular activity within the ATA is mind-boggling. I study classical TKD and Haidong Gumdo with a very traditional, (old school), TKD Grandmaster, (although he is affiliated with WTF), but he has an ATA "friend" who studied Classical Gumdo with him, (Grandmaster Chun Im). GM Im taught him Gumdo for about 1.5 yrs. and this guy now offers Seminars, Classes, and belt certification at his ATA school.
I hear he recently even began offing "Broad Sword" classes...
...yeah, "swindlers" is the word I'm looking fo.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Since a new post bumped this thread, I just went back and re-read it and watched the videos that Andrew had posted. I didn't watch them first time around. They were absolutely horrible.

[coralreefer]

To the OP:

I think it would be better to just visit the schools in your area and get more information about the individual schools. I cant say for certain that some of the things said here about the ATA are true or not, but I can tell you for a fact that things such as membership contracts, fees stacked on each other, lacking technique, 7 year old BB's, etc etc are NOT exclusive to ATA designated schools. All of the aforementioned organizations have schools under their umbrella that do such things...obviously varied to a certain degree.

I will admit I come from a WTF "chain" school. We also had contracts ranging from 1-3 years, testing fees for each rank, various seminars and other events which all come at a charge, etc. I will admit that yes there were very young 1st Dan or higher ranks, and basically the general atmosphere that was described earlier of the ATA.

However I would point out that these things do mean that you cannot get great training or have instructors who truly are interested and focused on your improvement. I left that school in 2004 to accept a 2-year taekwondo scholarship in S. Korea (arranged by my master) and I can say that the training I had back home was MUCH better than 90% of the training I have done here.

Regarding the video, I would only point out that I have seen more than my fair share of such matches from all organizations in terms of men of the same age and weight (they were between 40-49 years old). Many "national" competitions do not mean the participants are the best in the nation as in most cases they do not need to qualify to compete there. Even at the AAU nationals anyone can compete so long as they are a member of the AAU, regardless of whether or not they have technique and form that some consider "required" of a BB to respect their rank.

My point is that while the ATA may have something of a reputation in the taekwondo community, do not let this lead you to believe that much of the same practices can not happen in schools under other organizations. As is said time and time again all over this forum, all schools and masters are different and the choice is yours to choose a program that fits your goals.

Good Luck -

[Abbax8]

Here's a link to another TKD organization that is pretty small

http://www.unitedtkdf.com/about.htm

I am only a bit familiar with it, my old judo partner attended one of the schools and spoke highly of the training. The organization started when they tired of the politics, sound familiar. I've met some of the instructors and they seemed like good guys, some are actually judoka who later trained TKD when getting slammed into the mat hurt too much .

Dennis

[coralreefer]

However I would point out that these things do mean that you cannot get great training or have instructors who truly are interested and focused on your improvement. I left that school in 2004 to accept a 2-year taekwondo scholarship in S. Korea (arranged by my master) and I can say that the training I had back home was MUCH better than 90% of the training I have done here.

Sorry, I couldn't edit but mistyped something. The above should read "point out that these things DO NOT mean that......"

[sungjado]

I have read all written on this thread. I have no ties with the ATA. With that said, I do remember when the ATA first started in Omaha, NE and then moved to Little Rock, AR. Back in the early to mid 70's, the ATA was a first class organization and the schools were first class. GM Lee taught the Chang Hon Tul/Hyungs at that time. He was first class. Then he brought his brothers over from Korea and put them in a position of authority over and above the simple Americans. Many excellent instructors quit the ATA during the mid to late 70's because of how they were treated. Many of them started the organizations that exist today.
The GM started getting a "big" head and dreamed many dreams of greatness. Those close to him just fueled the dreams and the ATA started it's downhill slide into McDojangs. I believe there are some very good ATA schools and a lot of very bad schools.

[Mac]

I agree with what others have said here. A few people I know who were students of an ATA school absolutly loved it and reallly had fun, but from my observation - they really sucked. In my view, the best description is a McDojang - but depends on what you are looking for. They appeared to get good exercise, had fun, lots of camps and seminars, etc. Just not my 'cup of tea'.

[CZarAugustus]

I've been a member at the ATA school in Grand Forks for just over two years now and I can both agree and disagree on the things that are being said. Like the general opinion of most everyone else, I'm am greatly disappointed with ATAs low standards when it comes to testing. I can also confirm the very high cost of being a member, I'd be better of playing polo . But I still hold the ATA in high regard for being a leader in martial arts training. Like Bill said, EGM Lee and the ATA revolutionized martial arts instruction. And to Andrew Simonsen, I don't think you can judge the entire organization on just a few videos. Those two men in the first video aren't necessarily the best ATA has to offer. That was just one division of maybe 10 or 15 similarly built men. And your comment on how they're sparring, unlike the other organizations, ATA unfortunately doesn't promote full-contact sparring which would explain why they seem to "lack power." And while I can't deny the "7 year-old black belt" I can say that it takes closer to three years to get your black belt not two. And to repeat what others have said, Songham Taekwondo wasn't thrown together overnight by a few random Korean immigrants with black belts, it was formed through years of research by great martial artists and designed to bring Taekwondo into a new light. The Songham forms were created to "move with" the student. They reflect what the student should know at that particular point in their training.
ATA may have their own set of unique drawbacks, but so do all other martial arts organizations. ATA is very able in creating fine martial artists if the student is willing to do their part.

Darian Colgrove

[Eliz]

I saw from your introduction that you were ATA TKD. Thank you for refreshing this dead thread as a lot of good info was posted here.

Andrew S. is a competitor that I personally know. His martial art is TKD (much like you) but his passion is wrestling. He has seen what so many of us have also seen - sub-par performance from the ATA. Do not fault him for his educated opinion.

Perhaps you are in an ATA school that you are happy with? That is a good beginning and good for you! Now, where do you want to go with it?

I look forward to hearing of your goals

[Jonathan Randall]

Darian,

My brother-in-law and his family are very active in the ATA and his experience has been very good -- much better than my ATA experience years ago. He earned his black belt last year after about 2 1/2 years of training -- but he was in class five times a week. I'd have to say that he had better skills from the ATA as a green belt than I had in the ATA as a red belt. That's quite a gap, so I recognize some schools are substantially better than others.

In any case, glad to see you posting here.

[gmtkd]

To add some facts I think I know to the original discussion:

When Korea was liberated from Japan, different Korean martial artists got together and made the Korean Taekwondo Association. Then, when South and North Korea split, one particular founder of taekwondo separated from the group, supported North Korea, and made ITF. The ones who stayed with South Korea made WTF. Since then, ITF and WTF have evolved separately to the point that I wish they weren't both called tkd.

ATA, in my understanding, is an organization that does the ITF type of taekwondo with a specific business model. As others have said, I have never seen an ATA school that I thought was the quality of a non ATA school. But, as others have also pointed out, I have not seen every ATA school.

On other notes: I stubbornly refuse to believe, even in the face of all evidence, that the public does not understand what WTF means on a taekwondo school. Maybe it will sink into my brain one of these years.

[CEB]

To the general public, WTF means something that has nothing to do with TaeKwonDo.

[Tripitaka of AA]

So true... I believe the OM Group and the Southern Tenant Farmers Union, also have the same problem. But if a mathematician writes NP, he might not be trying to suggest that a task will be "no problem".

[Cliff Hargrave]

To add some facts I think I know to the original discussion:

When Korea was liberated from Japan, different Korean martial artists got together and made the Korean Taekwondo Association. Then, when South and North Korea split, one particular founder of taekwondo separated from the group, supported North Korea, and made ITF. The ones who stayed with South Korea made WTF. Since then, ITF and WTF have evolved separately to the point that I wish they weren't both called tkd.

You are just a little bit off in your history. The guy that first brought all the Korean Karate schools together under the TKD banner was a South Korean general, Choi Hong Hi, He didn't "support" North Korea. He just made a good will trip there to spread TKD and the South Korean government got mad about it. So he moved the ITF headquarters to Canada. The South Korean government started the WTF after Choi left. EDIT ADDED: North and South Korea were created after WWII. "TKD" was formed in 1955, Choi didn't leave Korea until 1972.


That being said, lets just say that most Korean "history" on martial arts has been less than accurate.

Darian,

I had a very high ranking ATA black belt, school owner, tell me that the Songham forms were made up in a hotel room in one evening with the express purpose of having them copyrighted so their organization would be unique from other styles of TKD. Take it for what it's worth.

[andyjeffries]

You are just a little bit off in your history. The guy that first brought all the Korean Karate schools together under the TKD banner was a South Korean general, Choi Hong Hi

I disagree with you and so does the recollection and records described in the "Modern History of Taekwondo" book. The kwans were unifed under the KTA by the agreement of the kwan heads, of which General Choi was one. He suggested the name and forced the KTA to change from Taesoodo to Taekwondo and he used his influence as an Army general to spread the word, but he didn't bring them together.

I'm sure he'd have liked everyone to think he did, the same as I'm sure he'd have liked everyone to forget about him asking for an honorary dan certificate from one of the kwans rather than earning his dan grade the same as everyone else ;-)

[Cliff Hargrave]

I disagree with you and so does the recollection and records described in the "Modern History of Taekwondo" book. The kwans were unifed under the KTA by the agreement of the kwan heads, of which General Choi was one. He suggested the name and forced the KTA to change from Taesoodo to Taekwondo and he used his influence as an Army general to spread the word, but he didn't bring them together.

I'm sure he'd have liked everyone to think he did, the same as I'm sure he'd have liked everyone to forget about him asking for an honorary dan certificate from one of the kwans rather than earning his dan grade the same as everyone else ;-)

Please refer to this sentence in my post "That being said, lets just say that most Korean "history" on martial arts has been less than accurate. "

Whether he "brought them together" or he was just one of a group really doesn't matter. He was the one who got his name out there and was the one that was best known. I am sure if it was by merit, or by political influence, or a little of both depends on who you ask.

[Webmaster]

Please refer to this sentence in my post "That being said, lets just say that most Korean "history" on martial arts has been less than accurate. "

Whether he "brought them together" or he was just one of a group really doesn't matter. He was the one who got his name out there and was the one that was best known. I am sure if it was by merit, or by political influence, or a little of both depends on who you ask.

Actually I'd say that just the fact that we are disputing General Choi's role in the formation of TKD only further substantiates Cliff's statement 'that most Korean history on martial arts has been less than accurate'. I happen to agree with him, and I'd be kind in stating that Korean martial arts history is not just a little inaccurate. The reality is that Korean martial arts history is a total mess of inaccuracies and complete fabrication. I get it that the Koreans hate the Japanese, but the selective use of history in an attempt to exorcise all of the Japan-ness from their arts has resulted in arts with muddled history, and a level of quality that suffers greatly from it's heyday in the 60's and 70's. The TKD I remember from the early 70's was some of the most hardcore martial arts imaginable.

Then money happened...

[Cliff Hargrave]

I totally agree Robert. I know basically two "generations" of TKD practitioners. The ones who learned in the service, or from guys that were in the service in the 60s and 70s. They were hard core bad dudes. Most of the early PKA and WKA kickboxers were from that group, including my BJJ instructor! He was the #1 rated light heavyweight in the 70s and lost his title shot to Ross Scott.

Sometime during the 80s it changed. Now when you see TKD it's either Olympic style sparring or chain school, expensive day-care, where everyone with a pulse and on-time payments gets a black belt.

[TonyU]

Sometime during the 80s it changed. Now when you see TKD it's either Olympic style sparring or chain school, expensive day-care, where everyone with a pulse and on-time payments gets a black belt.

Which either way has evolved into a high level athletic game of feet tag, IMO.