Was I a bit overboard?

[Don Roley]

Today I told a student he could not train with me.

He was studying another art, but was dissatisfied with the treatment and such. He thought it might be good to try out another art. I happened to be the closest to him.

Well, just about everyone I have right now has trained in Bujinkan and sought me out because of it. I got a guy coming from about 50 miles. The idea that he wanted to train with me just because I was so close did not appeal to me. Neither did the idea that I would have to take the time to train him from scratch when I could be working with folks I am pretty sure will be in the Bujinkan 20 years from now. If he jumped to another art after a while, all the time I spent on him would be wasted.

But the thing that I dropped him for was that he did not give me any way of contacting him in a hurry. The e-mail address was work related and bounced back messages unless you went to the trouble of submitting your address to be approved. His cell phone seems to be turned off after work so he does not take work home with him.

I don't know if it was because I spent so much time in Japan or I just do not like being treated like I should be convincing him to train with me. I had to defer to my teachers a lot while I was in Japan and while I never had to do something like stand in a horse stance for an hour before anyone would accept me, I did have my own tasks I had to do to get accepted as a gaijin in Japan. It does not strike me as correct that he would contact me and not even give me his home phone number and he expected me to jump through some hoops in order to be able to e-mail him.

I am not selling anything. I don't need the money. My attitude is that no one has any power over me and if they don't show me what I want to see I will send them out the door. Part of what I want to see is enough respect to allow the teacher to contact the student at a moments notice if needed or even just desired.

So there is one less guy who will be training with me. Do you guys think I overreacted?

[Eliz]

Hi Don,
I think he would have dropped out anyway. More concentrated environments [such as you describe] usually are not appealing to school hoppers.

The cell phone thing and e-mail thing elude me. I do not want to be reached - plain clear and simple. I give none of the aforementioned information out, and I am very up front with people on the matter. I am a little confused as to why your inability to reach him on off hours was an issue.

In closing, we have not had much of a success rate with convience store shoppers. They either never show up or they bail after one or two classes. Some we have shown the door by cranking up the workouts a notch or two, knowing full and well that they NEEDED to leave.

I respect your decision to be upfront from the get go.

[Don Roley]

The cell phone thing and e-mail thing elude me. I do not want to be reached - plain clear and simple. I give none of the aforementioned information out, and I am very up front with people on the matter. I am a little confused as to why your inability to reach him on off hours was an issue.

I respect your desire not to be reached. But if you wanted to train with me, I would have to know how to reach you. My teachers in Japan always knew how to reach me. If class was canceled, I would be told. If there were further questions about your past, I would want to ask you before you showed up for class, etc.

And it is a sign of the attitude I have seen. The teacher really does not make it easy for students to train with them. If they get put off with a little inconvenience, they will not be in it for the long run. Waiting by the phone seeing if the teacher will call you back and say he will accept you is something I see in Japanese martial arts. It was almost like he was reversing the situation by controlling when I could call him. He probably did not see it, being used to teachers more like used car salesmen ("what can I do to get you to sign the papers") than a traditional teacher. I don't bend over backwards for anyone trying to be my student. My teachers never did and I won't.

[wingchundo.girl]

We have a lot of folks come in and look around. Of course if the guy gave you a negative vibe, then you acted accordingly. The fact that you asked if you went overboard might mean that you weren't really sure about the situation.

I've worked in a bank for twenty years, as a bank teller to a branch management. We always sent out a thank you card to new customers, primarily to find if the address info they gave us was valid. If it wasn't, we closed out the account. I took this tip with me when we opened our school.

Usually wrong contact info could mean several things. They are used to skipping out on obligations. They are financially unable to keep the accounts open. He can't really travel too far due to car issues, so of course he would check out a school that is closest to his location. He wants to keep his contact info secure until he is sure about you.

But I will always give someone the benefit of a doubt, even if they rub me the wrong way at first. Some have turned out to be long time students. The others drop away anyways. And admittedly a few have been more trouble than they were worth, but they don't stay long.

That's why we offer an introduction with the understanding that we are evaluating the student, just as much as the student is evaluating the school.

[Jonathan Randall]

But the thing that I dropped him for was that he did not give me any way of contacting him in a hurry. The e-mail address was work related and bounced back messages unless you went to the trouble of submitting your address to be approved. His cell phone seems to be turned off after work so he does not take work home with him.

Some people, as Eliz wrote, have good reason not to be contactable 24/7 by folks outside of their immediate family. I learned this the hard way when, in the early years of the WWW (circa 1995), I was stalked by a cuckoo because I expressed a political opinion he disagreed with. You will have to use your judgment (gut instinct) whether this person is hard to contact because he finds that convenient or because he wishes to protect his privacy.

I don't know if it was because I spent so much time in Japan or I just do not like being treated like I should be convincing him to train with me. I had to defer to my teachers a lot while I was in Japan and while I never had to do something like stand in a horse stance for an hour before anyone would accept me, I did have my own tasks I had to do to get accepted as a gaijin in Japan. It does not strike me as correct that he would contact me and not even give me his home phone number and he expected me to jump through some hoops in order to be able to e-mail him.

In retrospect, I realize I had two very good teachers (really the only two good ones I had in the MA) who thought and acted this way. Unfortunately, I was clueless and mistakenly thought both were being a bit of a jerk. Most people in the West simply do not think or act this way when soliciting services or instruction and cannot understand the distincton. On the other hand, those who do know are likely more prepared to receive quality instruction. It's a fine line. As a teacher, not giving any feedback over faux pas, yet condemning them or punishing them is neither fair nor productive; yet not presenting everything on a platter does help filter out potential lazy and/or permanently clueless individuals and aids students in learning by making them do some work themselves.

Your lingering doubt that caused you to make this thread tells me you probably were a bit too abrupt with this person, but that your sentiments and general attitude are very good and your reasoning sound. Maybe making clear to them in the future that you teach for the art's sake and expect them to do some preliminary research themselves on your art prior to applying and consider the responsibility theirs in initiating and continuing contact with you would be a good response the next time.

[torbjork]

The e-mail address was work related and bounced back messages unless you went to the trouble of submitting your address to be approved. His cell phone seems to be turned off after work so he does not take work home with him.

For me, that'd be annoying,although not a total dealbreaker. OTOH, since my classes are now frequently cancelled for different reasons, it's in everyone's best interest to give me a working and attended cellphone number so I can text them to let them know they can stay home that night.

The bottom line is: Your school, your students, your decision. If you felt that it wasn't worth your time to train this guy, you were completely within your rights to send him elsewhere.

[Eliz]

But if you wanted to train with me, I would have to know how to reach you.

One person in the school does have my info (not e-mail - I never check that ).

He also knows that I don't pick up phones (unless it is family) once I close down for the day. He just leaves a message and it is my responsibility from there on out. He did his part. I am self employed and boundaries - for the sake of my family and my sanity - are set in stone.

A lot of people guard their private time, Don.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Don,

You and I definitely screen students and I am sure that your gut told you that this was one to pass. Having a working phone number so that you can contact someone could be a serious issue if you need to cancel class, etc. Personally I want students who really want to be there and are not shopping around or train with me because I am the closest thing. You and I, because we do not need the money are looking for a student who is in it for the long haul and in today's world that can be difficult.

[JWhiteSensei]

Hey Don. I don't think you were overboard at all. Colorado Springs is a pretty large city. It's HUGE compared to Canon. I'm sure little Grasshopper will find a very nice McDojo there and be very happy until he decides to move again.

I'm the kind of guy who will give just about anyone a chance. There are those that have come to me that I just got that "feeling" about and told them they would be better off training somewhere else. Not the smartest thing to do with rent and utilities to pay but I have a certain amount of pride in my art and integrity in what I do. Even in a small town of about 30,000 I still make the payments and stay open with my self respect in tact.

[Jonathan Randall]

Hey Don. I don't think you were overboard at all. Colorado Springs is a pretty large city. It's HUGE compared to Canon. I'm sure little Grasshopper will find a very nice McDojo there and be very happy until he decides to move again.

I'm the kind of guy who will give just about anyone a chance. There are those that have come to me that I just got that "feeling" about and told them they would be better off training somewhere else. Not the smartest thing to do with rent and utilities to pay but I have a certain amount of pride in my art and integrity in what I do. Even in a small town of about 30,000 I still make the payments and stay open with my self respect in tact.

Well said and good points.

I do think the art dictates to a certain extent how strictly students are screened. My kenpo instructor years ago had studied some knife work under Leo Gaje but did want to talk to the student first to see why they wanted to learn "knife fighting" and would only teach students who had been in his classes for awhile first. Given that ninjutsu does attract a certain element (Ralph Severe, anyone?) who do not, IMO, play well with others, his art is one where screening is of great importance.

I think traditional styles such as authentic Okinawan karate are more self screening than other arts. It takes longer to progress through the basics than, well, most commercial styles (ATA anyone?) and those into instant gratification or who have unstable personalities generally can't hack it in the art you teach.

[poetic misjustice]

I'm in two minds about the situation, if you were unhappy with his performance or hois commitment then you have every right to show him the door, but the question remains, did you give him a chance? i know alot of people who joined my class because we were relatively close, but some of them have become the most dedicated and talented martial artists i have ever met, on the other hand people who sought us out have bailed. I joined out of convenience, true i was seven i went to whichever school my parents took me to and it took months of begging to get them to take me there but now i am training to become a full time instructor and trying to run my own class in future

[hr_boston]

I have seen some of the same thing Don. I have a website for people to find our dojo. There is an on-line form to fill out that generates, then sends me an email. From there I send to them basic information, that this is a small home dojo not a large one and if they are still interested please email back and we can set up a time for them to come check out a class and I will give them more information at that time, especially as this is my home I do not want people just showing up without warning. It amazes me how many people, even after writing how they are “incredibly interested” or “have been searching for this art since they were kids” , don’t bother to write me back. Maybe a quarter of them do, then less than half of that actually come to a class. This actually works for me as I don’t have much room indoors and already have enough good people to help me practice.
I can understand a person not giving their regular personal or work email, however they could at least make a new email just for contact within this circumstance. Being an architect I have had to cancel my fair share of classes because I had to stay late on a project, but I always send out a general email and call directly those people who do not do the email so well . It is in their best interest to have some sort of contact info so they don’t make a wasted trip. When I was most often on the other side of this situation, I would want a way to be contacted if there was a problem or additional information I needed. As it was said, the people who put in the effort to get the training are the people to keep.

[Erik]

Don, you're not in Japan. You're dealing with an American. The culture is a bit different.

If you don't like him because you simply don't like him, no worries. If you don't like that you can't get ahold of him, first ask why, of course (could be some innocent goof-up), but if he is simply non-cooperative then I wouldn't want to train with him, either.

Personally, if some instructor gave me some kind of run-around and made it difficult to start training, I would blow him off as being unserious (unless I someone I respected recommended him/her). This is America and American business practices are the norm here. Right or wrong, it's the common language (I almost wrote Lingua Franca ).

When I've joined new clubs (three in the past few years) I did not know how hectic work and traffic would be, I did not know how my ankle and knee would do, and I did not know if I would really like it or not. I had to give it a go for a little while and, to be honest, I'm sure I looked un-serious to some of the folks there. It wasn't because I had anything against the trainers.

So, from what you describe, I think you're being a little too harsh (not a lot) but it is certainly your right. Of course, the rest of what affected your decision may not be coming through to me in an internet post. And deciding whom you train is certainly your right.

[tgace334]

I would say "it depends" Don. If you just had a gut feeling that there was something "up" with this guy then by all means send him on his way. However, if it was an issue of not feeling you were getting the proper "respect" I, like Eric, would suggest that you consider the cultural differences involved with American students. For right or wrong (and I thing there is a lot in the "right" column) many Americans consider themselves their own "masters" and outside of common courtesy don't subscribe to the same sorts of "respect conventions" as one would in Japan.

[Vagabond]

I understand that thsi is an American culture with American buisiness ethics/practices. We are however trying to learn something that we consider valuable or useful from anotehr culture, and should we not accept the regulations of that culture in order to procure an intact understanding and practice of that thing? In short, isn't Japanese culture integral for true traditional Martial Arts.

[tgace334]

I understand that thsi is an American culture with American buisiness ethics/practices. We are however trying to learn something that we consider valuable or useful from anotehr culture, and should we not accept the regulations of that culture in order to procure an intact understanding and practice of that thing? In short, isn't Japanese culture integral for true traditional Martial Arts.

That depends on what you are studying the art for and/or what the insturctor is TEACHING the art for IMO.

If it is purely for physical skills like fighting and conditioning then are cultural trappings really necessary? If you are looking for the philosophical, spiritual, or historical aspect of an "art" then perhaps it is.

Although I wonder..do the Japanese really believe that we westerners have to act like easterners here in our home country to achieve maximum benefits from the arts? I can understand the "when in Rome" aspect if you were training IN Japan, or have a Japanese instructor, but sometimes I think that strict "eastern" martial arts trappings in our western culture seems a tad contrived.

[Don Roley]

Although I wonder..do the Japanese really believe that we westerners have to act like easterners here in our home country to achieve maximum benefits from the arts? I can understand the "when in Rome" aspect if you were training IN Japan, or have a Japanese instructor, but sometimes I think that strict "eastern" martial arts trappings in our western culture seems a tad contrived.

I am of two minds on the matter.

Sometimes I do think the Japanese way is a bit silly. As a westerner I question everything. But I have seen the value of just shutting up and doing things as the teacher says until I get more insight.

Part of the problem is that I learned in a certain way. That is how I pass it along. Is there another way of doing things? Of course. But the question is could something be lost in the transition? I have seen things where people have tried to make things more American and lost some very important points.

In the other hand, the worst examples of trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese is usually a good sign of a fraud. My group does not even wear keikogi in class, just stuff like gym clothes and such. We don't bow except for a small one to start and end class and the students call me by my first name.

[ben]

These kinds of calls are always difficult. Sometimes you never feel like you've made the right decision. The fact that you're worried about whether you were a bit of an a**hole is proof (in my book anyway) that you aren't.

Good teachers always reflect on their teaching, that's the way they get better. The other way is to seek feedback from other teachers with similar or greater experience. You've done both.

b

[Erik]

I understand that thsi is an American culture with American buisiness ethics/practices. We are however trying to learn something that we consider valuable or useful from anotehr culture, and should we not accept the regulations of that culture in order to procure an intact understanding and practice of that thing? In short, isn't Japanese culture integral for true traditional Martial Arts.

Maybe for Japanese ones.

I know that in our Judo club it's heavily Hawaiianized (is that a word?) and simple good sportsmanship and good manners are enough. There are almost no Japanese formalities. I know I would not bother with a club that was more Japanese than that. I'm there to learn Judo and if I want to learn Japanese I'll go travel (which sounds like a lot of fun, actually).

Regarding this guy trying out a new club, it makes no sense whatsoever to have some sort of "cultural test" before the student starts and before s/he has had the chance to be exposed to new ideas and expectations. In fact, he'd be "wrong" if he were not on the same page as the rest of his culture (his region in the US) at first.

[Bruno@BS]

I would say "it depends" Don. If you just had a gut feeling that there was something "up" with this guy then by all means send him on his way. However, if it was an issue of not feeling you were getting the proper "respect" I, like Eric, would suggest that you consider the cultural differences involved with American students. For right or wrong (and I thing there is a lot in the "right" column) many Americans consider themselves their own "masters" and outside of common courtesy don't subscribe to the same sorts of "respect conventions" as one would in Japan.

Otoh the Art he teaches is a traditional Japanese art, based on traditional values. If you are a student, you are not the master in that student - teacher relationship, and the teacher is not your employee.