Some Personal Definitions

[Abbax8]

It goes back to Dennis' OP..that Dennis was "put here in this time and place for a specific reason that He (God) knows". If this is the case then you have no free will as your choices may not fulfill the reason that you are here. You could have used your free will to become a stunt man in 1984 and be dead already, and failed in the greater purpose which the Lord has set out for you. I don't know how people rationalize it.

Funny you mention it, I did toy with the idea of being a stunt man in my younger days.

As for being here for a God determined reason, yes I believe that AND I also believe that I am free to cooperate with it or not. Now I don't know with certainty what that purpose is, I like to think being the best husband and father I can be is part of it.

I could today decide to leave the wife and kids and go chase a lot of loose skirts, but that would be wrong on many levels. Each day I am presented with many choices to make. I try to make them based upon the rules I have for my life. That's all I can do, so I try to do that and don't worry about the big picture of tomorrow, next year, etc. Today has problems enough.

If I do decide to not carry out the plan God has for me I'm sure he can figure a Plan B to make things work. That's why he's God.

Dennis

[RobQuinnJr]

As for being here for a God determined reason, yes I believe that AND I also believe that I am free to cooperate with it or not. Now I don't know with certainty what that purpose is, I like to think being the best husband and father I can be is part of it.

I could today decide to leave the wife and kids and go chase a lot of loose skirts, but that would be wrong on many levels. Each day I am presented with many choices to make. I try to make them based upon the rules I have for my life. That's all I can do, so I try to do that and don't worry about the big picture of tomorrow, next year, etc. Today has problems enough.

If I do decide to not carry out the plan God has for me I'm sure he can figure a Plan B to make things work. That's why he's God.

See, this is the problem with free will. No one knows God's plans. So if you have two choices (A and B) and you choose A, how do you know whether it was your choice or if it was destiny? Likewise with choice B? You don't know, and you can't know. So either free will is an illusion or it is part of destiny in which case it is not free will at all.

Ugh, this is starting to hurt my head...

[Ramirez]

It seems to me that free will is a pre-condition for Judeo-Christian religions. Isn't the Adam/Eve story an allegory for the granting of free will by God? In fact I would think that the whole religion is structured so that it assumes free will and lays down a moral code that you make a choice on following.

Isn't the Catholic tradition of confession based on the idea that the confessor had the free will to sin or to not sin and is a way of making atonement for making the wrong choice?

I am an atheist as long time members of this board know btw Rob. I'll probably be in purgatory depending on Dennis McGeehan to argue the case for me.

[Abbax8]

Nah Mark,

I'll be in Purgatory along with you!

But yes, as far as I understand my faith (Catholic), we do have free will. And we obviously don't always make the best of choices as when we ask ourselves, "why the heck did I do that?"

As far as destiny, I don't believe that concept if by it you mean it is written you will be or do "X." I believe the future is one of endless possibilities, some easily obtained others very hard to reach.

Dennis

[David Craik]

God is not omniscient, then?

Also Dennis, you state that you don't believe in destiny - that the future is one of endless possibilities. But before you wrote:

If I do decide to not carry out the plan God has for me I'm sure he can figure a Plan B to make things work. That's why he's God.

If God's purpose for you will be fulfilled regardless of the choices you make, I don't understand how this is not destiny. Or do you mean that He will come up with a new purpose on the fly as you make your choices?

It seems rather like believing everyone is assigned a number at birth. Nobody knows anybody's number, and this number can be changed at will - perhaps every day - and nobody knows when a change has occurred either. The statement "I have a number" in such circumstances is rather meaningless. Many will come to doubt that there is any such assigned number to begin with.

Part of my confusion is in your quote above. You can't decide not to carry out God's plan if you don't even know what the plan is. Some people die penniless drug-addicts; was this Plan Z for them because God ran out of ideas for them, or did their existence fulfill some mysterious higher purpose equal to what Plan A was?

[Ramirez]

Then there is the paradox if God is omnipotent then he can't be omniscient and vice versa. If he knows the future then he can't change it meaning he isn't omnipotent. If he is omnipotent then he can change the future meaning he isn't omniscient.....this is why I gave up these philosophical discussions unless I was in a pub and trying to seduce the first year university female philosophy student. I had better luck with the nursing students.

[David Craik]

Maybe He knows He will change it.

[Abbax8]

David,

When I said Plan B, I did not necessarily mean that I was involved in it. If I choose to do my own thing, God will make things work out through some other means, some other person.

Dennis

[David Craik]

Thanks for the clarification Dennis, I wasn't sure about that one. How do you know what is "your own thing" and what is a path to the fulfillment of God's plan if you don't know what the plan is? I'm not talking about neccesarily choosing a sinful path. If the original plan was for you to minister to the sick, but you choose to raise money for your diocese through fund-raisers, does God say "well, that's good too" and simply assign that plan to someone else? The plan will only be fulfilled if someone - through their own free will - chooses to do it. And since nobody knows the plan they would have done it anyway. Doesn't seem like there's really much point in there being a "plan" at all.