The Good, The Bad, The Youthful, and The Experienced

[Vagabond]

So I have debated on writing this post for some time. I want to set a couple of things straight before I write what I want to write. I am asking this because I want to gain an honest census of opinions, and beliefs. If I seem stubborn I am most likely playing the Devil's Advocate, and will try to make that clear. This is a problem that I feel I have come across in this message board, but feel that most likely it is my inexperience that causes me to feel this way, I want to know the answer.

This is about the conflict that often occurs between the youth, and the older people (not seniors necessarily) especially in the United States. As an youth it feels like possibly I am considered inexperienced, which I am, but that what experienced I have gained counts for little. This would make sense when comparing my 4 years of experience in the MA compared to most of your 25+ years of experience in both life and MA. This is tremendously frusterating though, when I feel that I have learned something, and then find out I have only scratched the surface. That is just the way it is though.

Still the way many people write to me seems that they are almost derisive, and I meant that in the lightest sense possible. This has left me with questions like how much experience is enough? How do people know of the quality of my experience? What makes other people's experience better than man? Why does this make their opinion better than mine? My answers to myself have been; There is never enough, only you will know, personal opinion, and experience respectively.

I realize no one on here is trying to beat anyone down, especially me. No one wants to lord over their years of experience and what not (I hope). Still I can't help but think that it is possible that a click has been formed. It is only natural sense you have all been together sharing information and experiences so long. You almost have a groupthink. When I ask a question I get very similiar answers, just with different flavors. I wonder if this is because you have the right answer based on experience, a similar answer due to groupthink, or some other option I may not have thought of.

Please note that I am asking this because I value your opinions, and I recognize and respect your experience, both in life and in the Martial Arts. I am not trying to be stubborn, or attack anyone. I just want you to consider this for a bit, and give me your honest opinion. Thank you in advance.

[sean_stonehart]

So I have debated on writing this post for some time. I want to set a couple of things straight before I write what I want to write. I am asking this because I want to gain an honest census of opinions, and beliefs. If I seem stubborn I am most likely playing the Devil's Advocate, and will try to make that clear. This is a problem that I feel I have come across in this message board, but feel that most likely it is my inexperience that causes me to feel this way, I want to know the answer.

K...

This is about the conflict that often occurs between the youth, and the older people (not seniors necessarily) especially in the United States. As an youth it feels like possibly I am considered inexperienced, which I am, but that what experienced I have gained counts for little. This would make sense when comparing my 4 years of experience in the MA compared to most of your 25+ years of experience in both life and MA. This is tremendously frusterating though, when I feel that I have learned something, and then find out I have only scratched the surface. That is just the way it is though.

Yep... you pretty much have that squared away.

Still the way many people write to me seems that they are almost derisive, and I meant that in the lightest sense possible. This has left me with questions like how much experience is enough? How do people know of the quality of my experience? What makes other people's experience better than man? Why does this make their opinion better than mine? My answers to myself have been; There is never enough, only you will know, personal opinion, and experience respectively.

K... again, you've picked up on that pretty good & fleshed it out.

I realize no one on here is trying to beat anyone down, especially me. No one wants to lord over their years of experience and what not (I hope). Still I can't help but think that it is possible that a click has been formed. It is only natural sense you have all been together sharing information and experiences so long. You almost have a groupthink. When I ask a question I get very similiar answers, just with different flavors. I wonder if this is because you have the right answer based on experience, a similar answer due to groupthink, or some other option I may not have thought of.

Well... it's not groupthink. Not even close. In my experience & more importantly, opinion... you'll see there's only so many ways to do a thing & so many ways to train properly. The proper ways of training are preserved & taught to people who will appreciate & continue the tradition, gaining the maximum benefit of it. They also won't dilute it or cheapen it for personal gains short of full students. The people who see something once or read about it with no background or outright borrow/steal training methods without the proper training are what happens. For some reason, PT Barnum becomes their patron saint of success. That's ok... the best people I've come across are the ones that are low key & reserved, leaving the circus for the masses.

The biggest thing you need to realize is you're 4 years in to a serious path of study that can last a lifetime. At your age, I was already 10 years down that road. Respect from people younger than me was simple because of my rank & physical ability. Getting a seat at the big kid's table though, still was a little while off while proving I was deserving of the seat.

Please note that I am asking this because I value your opinions, and I recognize and respect your experience, both in life and in the Martial Arts. I am not trying to be stubborn, or attack anyone. I just want you to consider this for a bit, and give me your honest opinion. Thank you in advance.

It's good to ask, but it's also good to listen & absorb what's not being said even more loudly when questions are answered.

[jjaje]

Patrick, it is always difficult being a newcomer to a place where people have been regularly communicating for years.

One issue I think, and this may not apply to you specifically, but in general terms of the young...

We encourage new practitioners here, we welcome young people on here. In fact, two of our moderators became moderators as teens. One major difference is in the attitude that one uses to approach this board the the other members. You can't imagine how many new practitioners come here, ask a question, then argue when they don't like the answer given. Those that have already made up their mind, instead of being open to other ideas or even criticism.

There have been many people that sign up, and don't bother to follow the posted rules. Many more that place little effort into making posts legible and coherent.

People that come here and try to be something they are not; whether it's lying about military experience, LE experience, people with questionable credentials to back up their claimed rank, or virtual tough guys, usually don't last long. There are enough real military, LE and advanced martial artists here, that someone pushing complete B.S. will get found out.

This board has a wealth of experience on it, if you just sit back and take it in. Ask genuine questions when confused on a subject, and don't argue with the answers.

[Vagabond]

Yeah, I feel that there is a giant wealth of information, and I have seen people make little fits and leave. I have honestly never seen anyone banned without good reason, and I even saw someone who should have been banned who wasn't (Big house anyone ). Just to be the Devil's Advocate, could it not be that you have developed a group think, which is nothing more than a general concept that you have all accepted as a truth. I ask this because I have seen people in construction with years of experience talk like they know everything, and simply put they usually do. Then a new kid does something a little bit differently, that saves a ton of time or product. I am just asking this because I am curious, again I am not accusing.

So what you are saying is I should sit down, shut up, and only post when I am confused?

[torbjork]

It's not groupthink, but as has been said, there are a finite number of good ways to do things, and an infinite number of bad ways. Many of the senior posters on here (not me) have been around their art or even several arts for a LONG time and have access to even more senior practicioners in their field. To use an old cliche, there's many paths to the mountain but once you get there the view is about the same, meaning that once you've spent a significant number of years training and studying, you start to see the principles underlying proper techniques, which are the same although the technique might be different.

In the construction industry, new materials and techniques/tools to use them are invented frequently, so that there IS stuff that may not have been possible before. This is elss the case in the traditional martial arts, because there is only so many ways the human body will bend.

I'd definately recommend reading and lurking a lot on the forum rather than posting. I still do, except when I have delusions of adequacy

[sean_stonehart]

Yeah, I feel that there is a giant wealth of information, and I have seen people make little fits and leave. I have honestly never seen anyone banned without good reason, and I even saw someone who should have been banned who wasn't (Big house anyone ). Just to be the Devil's Advocate, could it not be that you have developed a group think, which is nothing more than a general concept that you have all accepted as a truth. I ask this because I have seen people in construction with years of experience talk like they know everything, and simply put they usually do. Then a new kid does something a little bit differently, that saves a ton of time or product. I am just asking this because I am curious, again I am not accusing.

No... it's not a collective group think based on accepted truth. It's collective experience in separate yet similar environments & methods that all ultimately lead to the same place. Get the "group think" notion out of your head before it blinds you to the experiences that are out there to be had.

One of the main reasons for TMA continued existence today is the strong foundation of viable, proven training methods in sequence based on ability to understand then perform by the student. When a student gets the notion in their head they know what is better for them than the teacher does who has the experience with the TMA plus the responsibility to teach it properly, you get Joe's Hu-Flung-Poo School of Improved Martial Arts opening up & damaging people as well as the general reputation of TMA.

Think about it this way... how do you think the military would function if new recruits were able to tell their instructors... "Bah... I don't think I want to do basic training. Let's get straight to the good stuff"?? Or if the an aviation student told the instructor he really wasn't interested in learning to land the plane/helicopter since it wasn't the fun part?

So what you are saying is I should sit down, shut up, and only post when I am confused?

That's a good starting point. But you shouldn't wait until confused. You should ask when an opportunity for a genuine question presents itself but then not argue or try to play "Devil's Advocate" about it when the answer is given is not what you wanted/expected to hear.