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  1. #1
    Corripe Cervisiam Mekugi's Avatar
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    Default Shorinji Kempo at Youtube!

    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


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    Super Moderator Tripitaka of AA's Avatar
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    Thanks Russ, your videos are always fascinating. Do you know anything about the group that did this demo? - from the kids at the back I'd guess it was a local branch, with just the regular local seniors (rather than a team from Hombu).

    For those of you who don't know, Russ has been making videos of the Koryu Arts that give Demos, which are to be found in his sub-forum, Russ' Koryu Korner. Everyone can benefit from watching these clips, which are sometimes confusing, sometimes enthralling, sometimes just plain odd (to the eyes of non-practitioners). It can help to place one's own Art in perspective when you compare it to the others against whom it is judged.
    Last edited by Tripitaka of AA; 05-10-2010 at 12:06. Reason: added link
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    Do you know anything about the group that did this demo? - from the kids at the back I'd guess it was a local branch, with just the regular local seniors (rather than a team from Hombu).
    This group is the Owari-Asagi Shibu (at least that is what it sounded like over the loudspeaker), one of the Aichi based Shibu dojo knocking around down here. They are very local and have been demonstrating every year I have been here, so they are pretty solid in the area, I think. I always want to get better video of them, by my group goes on just after them so we're on deck, the camera is left to it's own means to film (amazing, I can just leave an expensive camera there without worry, huh...gotta love Japan).

    One girl in this group has Downs syndrome, and she is really fabulous. I am hesitant to put her on YouTube, namely because I never have the right angle to get any good film of her. Anyway, next year for sure. She's a sweetheart and a great martial artist.
    -R
    Last edited by Mekugi; 05-11-2010 at 08:39.
    Russ Ebert
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    Super Moderator Tripitaka of AA's Avatar
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    I saw you on your other clip! The stationary camera worked fine for me. I often prefer it that way, for the opportunity to choose for myself what to look at.

    I wonder if some of the visiting Kenshi here can make a guess at the grade of those two practitioners, based on the techniques that were shown in the Embu.

    I can just leave an expensive camera there without worry
    News Report: A camera thief was arrested today at Nagoya Castle after being apprehended by several martial arts enthusiasts. After being poked with Naginata, prodded with Jo, pulled by Kusarigama, massaged by the assorted fingertips and toes of several hakama-clad masters, the suspect is reported to have surrendered in tears, pleading for mercy and offering to buy the several hundred witnesses a drink. He had taken the item from a stand where it was filming a demonstration. He had fled the scene but was stopped after travelling just three inches.
    David Noble
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA
    . . . News Report: A camera thief was . . . stopped after travelling just three inches.
    LOL, was this measured from the centerpoint of the tripod, or from the outside edge of the rubber foot of the tripod closest to where the suspect was felled??
    Mert

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    What a totally cool training environment!!
    Honor is a language universally understood, yet spoken by few.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J. Bray View Post
    What a totally cool training environment!!
    Nifty huh!
    Russ Ebert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    I wonder if some of the visiting Kenshi here can make a guess at the grade of those two practitioners, based on the techniques that were shown in the Embu.
    The highest grade technique I saw in that was Bukkotsu Nage (throat throw) usually a 3rd Dan tecnique. Most of the techniques were actually Kyu grade, a few 1st Dan with one 2nd Dan technique in there. Embu rules allow for any technique the student has studied with a maximum of one technique from the grade above that you're studying for. In the previous statement I mean, by 1st Dan techniques, those that were studied to obtain that grade. If the two Kenshi are mixed grades then they can use techniques of the highest grade student. However, the lack of dynamism leads me to believe that these were (or at least one was) newly graded Jun-kenshi (1st Dan). The 2nd Dan technique is one they would have studied. I am surprised that Bukkotsu Nage was performed.

    All Dan grades are entitled to wear the Hoy so that's no guide :-)

  9. #9
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    Thanks! Interesting that there are rules for embu. Are those international rules or local?
    Russ Ebert
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  10. #10
    Member Anders Pettersson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    I wonder if some of the visiting Kenshi here can make a guess at the grade of those two practitioners, based on the techniques that were shown in the Embu.
    I would guess at least sandan, but probably yondan. They could even be godan, but it is hard to say from just that embu.

    Quote Originally Posted by roblegge View Post
    The highest grade technique I saw in that was Bukkotsu Nage (throat throw) usually a 3rd Dan tecnique. Most of the techniques were actually Kyu grade, a few 1st Dan with one 2nd Dan technique in there.
    There are actually a few higher hokei in there.
    Don't really understand what you mean by "usually", there are not different kamoku around, there have been some revisions of it over the years, but not that often. The one used now is from 1986 and there is a new revision that came in use in Japan this year's April. Other countries should start to use it at the latest in April 2014 (but they can start using it earlier if they want).

    Bukkotsu nage is actually in the yondan kamokuhyo (which means that you should start learning it when you are sandan). In the new kamokuhyo (as mentioned is used in Japan from this years April) bukkotsu nage is moved up to godan kamoku.
    Other hokei one can see in this embu is ushiro eri dori and omote nage, both in the yondan kamoku.
    They also do kataguruma, which isn't a SK hokei, but it is sometimes seen in embu. We have it as the attack in kata uchi nage, a hokei in the godan kamoku.

    Quote Originally Posted by roblegge View Post
    Embu rules allow for any technique the student has studied with a maximum of one technique from the grade above that you're studying for.
    I don't know where on earth you have got this from. In the embu competition rules you are only allowed to use hokei from the kamokuhyo you are studying, which means that if you are nidan and thus studying the sandan kamoku you can use those hokei, and of course all the hokei from lower ranks. (I should know since I have done judgeing in the international Taikai in Fukui in 2005 and in Bali 2009)


    Quote Originally Posted by roblegge View Post
    All Dan grades are entitled to wear the Hoy so that's no guide :-)
    That should be spelled hoi.
    Also there is actually no official rank requirements to wear hoi, even if the common "rule" is that one should be yudansha. In the old days (way before I started to practice), my sensei told me that they used to require sokai rank to wear hoi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post
    Thanks! Interesting that there are rules for embu. Are those international rules or local?
    In Embu Taikai there are rules. But of course for a demo one don't have to follow them.
    There are international rules. The things that can differ in local Taikai is the categories, like what is the highest rank category and if one use three or five judges etc.
    There are a short description of embu and the rules here: www.shorinjikempo.se/en/about/waza/embu/
    (The text still needs some proof reading and we should get some pictures in there as well, but it give you some idea.)

    /Anders
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  11. #11
    Super Moderator Tripitaka of AA's Avatar
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    Thank you Anders Sensei, whenever you find time to reply to a thread, it is always an authoritative and valuable response. I wish the same could be said about mine .
    David Noble
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  12. #12
    Member Anders Pettersson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    Thank you Anders Sensei, whenever you find time to reply to a thread, it is always an authoritative and valuable response. I wish the same could be said about mine .
    Unfortunately I don't find the time to post that often nowadays. But I think one of the best things with forums is that one can learn things, so if I have the time and there are facts needed I try to post.
    Your posts are also valuable David.

    /Anders
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  13. #13
    Moderator Emeritus TonyU's Avatar
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    Excellent post Mr. Petterson.
    Would you be so kind as to give us a little of your background and whom you trained under?
    I am not questioning your expertise. Quite the opposite. I am impressed with your knowledge of Shorinji Kempo and the art itself. One of the other things that imprresses me about the art is the ability to stay pure after so many generations. Something I don't normally see in many styles, my own included.
    Thank you.
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  14. #14
    Corripe Cervisiam Mekugi's Avatar
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    OIC you have private taikai, kind of like a hono embu. This was an embutaikai, or kobudo embukai- but it has different meaning in Shorinji Kempo.
    Russ Ebert
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  15. #15
    Member Anders Pettersson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post
    OIC you have private taikai, kind of like a hono embu. This was an embutaikai, or kobudo embukai- but it has different meaning in Shorinji Kempo.
    Since you are in Japan, I can explain how it works over there.
    Every year they have a national Taikai (competition) the Zenkoku Taikai (usually in October/November), in order to qualify for that people have to enter the prefecture Taikai.
    These Taikai are organised by each prefecture federation, and the national one usually the prefecture federation were it is held together with the national federation organize. At these events there is also often something called a hono embu (奉納演武 is the kanji I think), which is a pair doing their embu as an opening of the event.
    Here is a sample from 1982 (since this is an video thread).



    These two video above have hombu instructor showing embu, three of them still work at hombu.

    Here are two more videos from the same taikai. First one pair during the competition. The Takatsuki twins. I've actually met them a couple of times. They are still around. They are god friends of friends of mine in Kyoto.


    Here is all the winning pairs in each category. The first pair they show, and give the names for, is actually the youngest son of my teacher in Kyoto. It is Morikawa Hirohito, he is at the time in high school and nidan, now he is 7 dan and besides practice in his fathers dojo (Rakuto doin) he is also teaching at the high school Nishiyama koukou (were he work) in Kyoto.


    Then there of course are also often some demonstrations at the Taikai, here is an example from Osaka in 2009, a little more modern and better video quality.


    I hope this give you a better idea of what we usually (in SK) mean by Embu Taikai.
    (I of course understand what it means for most other budo, but since "embu" is a big part of our practice and also the way we do competition.)

    /Anders
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  16. #16
    Member Anders Pettersson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyU View Post
    Excellent post Mr. Petterson.
    Would you be so kind as to give us a little of your background and whom you trained under?
    I am not questioning your expertise. Quite the opposite. I am impressed with your knowledge of Shorinji Kempo and the art itself. One of the other things that imprresses me about the art is the ability to stay pure after so many generations. Something I don't normally see in many styles, my own included.
    Thank you.
    OK, even if we are going off topic (and taking time here that I don't actually have), but here it goes for those that managed to read it all.
    Any other questions, just ask.

    I started to practice in January 1984. At the time there was no proper dojo where I live, but a guy at school had practised some under my first sensei and held a small informal class together with some friends at our school.

    After a while we became members in a proper dojo in Stockholm (Bromma Shibu) roughly 320 km away from my home town. We travelled there as often as possible to get instructions from Roy Colegate who was the shibu-cho there at the time. We also invited other Swedish instructor over to hold regular training camps for weekend in Karlstad (my home town).
    I was registered as an SK member in 1985 (June or July) and have 435 as my kisei (sort of entry number/class that we have in SK, it goes up one number each month, so we are at 749 today).

    My first sensei was Roy Colegate, who sadly passed away when he was only in his early 50s.
    Other people I practised for in the early days here in Sweden was Leif Larsson and Tommy Kedja, now all stopped with SK.
    In Sweden we also have had a long relationship with Morikawa Zeoh sensei from Rakuto doin in Kyoto. Some of the first instructors in Sweden was his students.
    His oldest son spent one year here in Sweden in 1988, during this time he also stayed here in Karlstad. He was pretty much teaching us every day.
    Morikawa Zeoh sensei was a direct student under So Doshin, founder of Shorinji Kempo, when So Doshin opened the first dojo in Kyoto in 1961. At the time So Doshin were teaching half the month at the Kyoto Betsuin and half the time at hombu in Tadotsu.

    In 1992 I "lived" for 3 months in Kyoto and practised at Rakuto doin under Morikawa-sensei and his senior students. Since then I have visited Japan and of course always Kyoto some 12-13 timed (not sure how many times actually), always staying in the house of Morikawa-sensei and getting direct teaching from him and his sons.

    I have also spent some time at our hombu (of course at different koshukai/gasshuku, but also for other times when there are now official events, just practising with the staff and students at the Busen (today called the Zenrin Gakuen). And received a bit one on one instructions from several of the staff at hombu.

    So to sum up.
    Never had my own teacher very near, always had to travel to get instructions.
    My first teacher was Roy Colegate sensei sandan when I started, shortly after he received yondan, and now sadly deceased.
    My main teacher today is Morikawa-sensei, hachidan (since 2001 I think, he got nanadan in 1976). He is a bit over 80 years old today, but he can still teach. Also of course both his sons have taught me a lot together with some of the other seniors at Rakuto doin.

    Other helpful instructors over the years have been Mizuno-sensei, former chief instructor in UK. Have some friends in UK and thus visited UK a bit.

    Hombu instructors like Arai-sensei, Yamazaki-sensei, Kawashima-sensei, Sakashita-sensei, Sawamura-sensei (left his job at hombu a few years ago) Urata-sensei, and several of the younger hombu staff.

    Started in 1984 January
    Officially registered member since 1985 June, kisei 435.
    Shodan in 1987
    Nidan Shokenshi 1989 (at hombu, examiner was Kawashima-sensei)
    Sandan Chukenshi 1993 (at hombu, main examiner was Matsuda-sensei)
    Yondan Seikenshi 1997 (in Kyoto Butokuden at a hombu organised international koshukai, main examiner was Makino-sensei who started together with Morikawa-sensei as the first group in Kyoto)
    Godan 2001 (during a hombu organised koshukai in Finland, examiners were Arai-sensei and Aosaka-sensei)
    Daikenshi 2003 (this is hokai rank and it is just an written test sent in to hombu, so no idea who evaluated it)

    Also received Shodoshi in 2001 April. (This is the first sokai rank)

    As for other things I've been president of our federation since it was established in 1993 (recognised by WSKO in 1994)
    Was also hyougi-in (council member) of WSKO for the period 2001-2006.
    Been shibu-cho here in Karlstad since we got our dojo officially registered with WSKO since 1990.

    I hope that give some better picture of my background, but as I wrote just ask if there are other questions.

    /Anders
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    Moderator Emeritus TonyU's Avatar
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    Excellent! Thank you for the videos and for your background. You're a perfect example that if you want to train bad enough you'll find a way.
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    Thanks for taking the time to fill out the biography Anders, I knew some of it but not all. As Tony said, you show that desire to train can overcome many obstacles.

    Terrific videos, thanks.


    To flesh out the description of Taikai, I should mention that there are also competitions in Dantai Embu, where groups of kenshi performed choregraphed demonstrations of techniques as a team (not sure of the requirements, but I recall teams of 12 being an average number). The techniques are all from the standard curriculum (kamokyuho), but the complex and imaginative arrangements could resemble the kind of things you see in, for example, a drill display. There is no randori (sparring) at a Shorinji Kempo taikai, although it is a regular feature in classes. The emphasis is intended to be on developing together, working in partnership, to learn and improve without letting ego take over. That way, the coming together of classes across a region, a country, or internationally, while retaining the opportunities to strive for excellence, avoids the temptations to promote the more selfish desires to win-at-all-cost.
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  19. #19
    Super Moderator Tripitaka of AA's Avatar
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    Ooh. I just watched that last clip from Anders. Weird. Never seen a demonstration quite like that one. Modern indeed.
    David Noble
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    Member Anders Pettersson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    I should mention that there are also competitions in Dantai Embu, where groups of kenshi performed choregraphed demonstrations of techniques as a team (not sure of the requirements, but I recall teams of 12 being an average number).
    The rules say 6-12.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    There is no randori (sparring) at a Shorinji Kempo taikai, although it is a regular feature in classes.
    David, you are right on that we didn't have randori at Taikai for a long time (it was stopped in Japan in the late 70s due to some accidents).
    However in Indonesia they have continued to have it at Taikai, and it was not that uncommon at university taikai that they had unofficial randori competition.
    Now it is often a "presentation section" in Taikai, but with the regulations changed a bit. There should be one shusha (defender) and one kosha (attacker), half time one change roles.
    Due to the accidents that the organisation experienced there is a lot of focus on making it safe, both in regard to the regulations and the bogu that our hombu have developed. See pic:



    Here is a demo of how it can look:


    Even if it is just a demo category they sometimes present the winner, but that is not who beat the other person, but the pair that performed the best quality of randori/unyouhou. So the pair is judged rather than appointing a winner in the pair.
    If one search on Youtube for 少林寺拳法 運用法 (Shorinji Kempo unyouhou) one can find a few clip, not that many good around though. (Unyouhou means "application method" in is often used as the term instead of randori nowadays.)

    /Anders
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