Traditional Japanese Jujitsu

[Mark Jordan]

I believe that Self Defense and Martial Arts are NOT the same thing. There are rules that must be followed in combative sports to prevent injury, but there are no such rules in a real-life self defense situation. Martial arts training may be used for self defense, but you must also be prepared to use all of the dirty tricks that are not allowed in competition.

When it comes to martial arts, I am biased towards Traditional Japanese Jujitsu, because I believe it is much more comprehensive than most other martial arts.

[Andrewh423]

I don't think you'll get much argument about Martial Arts vs. Self Defense here.

However, speaking as a Jujutsu instructor, let's not kid ourselves either. If we were truly training for combat our classes would be held at a gun range, and probably more closely resemble SWAT or Military training. We may have a good mind for large scale combat, but our skills are now better suited for personal defense.

Also, any art can be taught as a combat art, and many still are.

[Abbax8]

I believe you will find that you are preaching to the choir here. Your point of view is shared by many of our members.

Dennis

[David Craik]

There are limitations in order to prevent injury in any sort of combative training, whether you call it 'self-defense', 'martial art', 'combative sport', 'H2H', or anything else.

You're right, 'martial arts' and 'self defense' aren't neccesarily the same thing - but not because of 'rules'.

When it comes to martial arts, I am biased towards Traditional Japanese Jujitsu, because I believe it is much more comprehensive than most other martial arts.

You may have a point. There is likely no other art where you can practice flinging an armored opponent to the ground. However for modern use there appear to be recent forms that also are quite comprehensive. I have never been a jujutsuka but was very impressed with SCJJ for example, or at least by the sensei I was working with. His 'tool box' was pretty extensive and covered standing locks, throws, striking, and newaza. Many things that could easily disable or kill if applied to that level.

* counts down until the tired discussion of applicability and benefits of competition vs. kata/waza etc. begins *

[Jonathan Randall]

I believe that Self Defense and Martial Arts are NOT the same thing. There are rules that must be followed in combative sports to prevent injury, but there are no such rules in a real-life self defense situation. Martial arts training may be used for self defense, but you must also be prepared to use all of the dirty tricks that are not allowed in competition.

When it comes to martial arts, I am biased towards Traditional Japanese Jujitsu, because I believe it is much more comprehensive than most other martial arts.

Both can have their place - modern and traditional Jujitsu styles. Many JJJ styles have long, distinguished histories with an extremely sophisticated skillset. However; don't discount more modern arts such as BJJ. Even if well practiced competitively, most good BJJ purple belts could walk all over many holding dan ranks in older, more traditional arts. And yes, the Gracies et. al. do know about knives and the possibility of getting kicked in the head by your attacker's buddies while groundfighting on the street.

I would note that at least two BJJ instructors on Forum Staff here also have a background (and dans in) traditional arts. It is not an either/or proposition.

[David Craik]

Who is this 'Commander Nitro' on the website in your signature link, Mr. Jordan?

[Cliff Hargrave]

I believe that Self Defense and Martial Arts are NOT the same thing. There are rules that must be followed in combative sports to prevent injury, but there are no such rules in a real-life self defense situation. Martial arts training may be used for self defense, but you must also be prepared to use all of the dirty tricks that are not allowed in competition.

Are you trying to "educate" us?

I promise you that you have more "rules" in your dojo than the UFC has in the cage. So the truth is: you believe your training methods and rule set better prepares you for the street than say the training methods and rule set from MMA, Judo, BJJ, kickboxing, etc...

So now tell us why you think these things. What is your training, rank, and expertise in Traditional Japanese Jujitsu. What type of training, rank, and experience do you have in sport martial arts that allows you to make a comparison of the two? What type of training, or life experience has prepared you to deal with real world violence to the extent you can speak as an expert on it?

Once you have qualified your statements, please explain how you came up with the conclusion?

I am going to assume this is you? http://www.alljujitsu.com/markjordan.html
and this: http://www.alljujitsu.com/combat-jujitsu.html

Which explains your signature website.

[David Craik]

Woohoo, that was faster than I thought.

Still wondering who "Cmdr. Nitro" is supposed to be, so far the only name I see on that cartoony site is Mark Jordan. Yet looking at the ribbons on the picture I see a Navy Cross - no one as far as I can tell named Mark Jordan ever earned this award. Mr. Jordan was a sonar technician in the Navy, certainly not a Commander. He got out in 1982 after a six-year stint and is thus ineligible for most of the ribbons pictured - Iraq, Kosovo, Southwest Asia.... There's even an Army Achievement Medal in there, lol.

Actually, I can't find any SEAL Commander that has won the Navy Cross corresponding to the service time frame indicated by the other medals.

Good heavens, what's that smell?

[Jonathan Randall]

Are you trying to "educate" us?

I promise you that you have more "rules" in your dojo than the UFC has in the cage. So the truth is: you believe your training methods and rule set better prepares you for the street than say the training methods and rule set from MMA, Judo, BJJ, kickboxing, etc...

So now tell us why you think these things. What is your training, rank, and expertise in Traditional Japanese Jujitsu. What type of training, rank, and experience do you have in sport martial arts that allows you to make a comparison of the two? What type of training, or life experience has prepared you to deal with real world violence to the extent you can speak as an expert on it?

Once you have qualified your statements, please explain how you came up with the conclusion?

I am going to assume this is you? http://www.alljujitsu.com/markjordan.html
and this: http://www.alljujitsu.com/combat-jujitsu.html

Which explains your signature website.

Ah, now we cut to the chase. His signature web site advertises "Professor" George Kirby's Black Belt Home Study Course in Budoshin Jujitsu. Apparently Mr. Kirby's style - which he founded himself - is more "traditional" than Helio Gracie's "modern" style which is decades older. All we need now is an advert for Master Van Doink's Ninja Black Belt Home Study Course...
http://www.selfdefense-martialarts.c...ensevideo.html

[David Craik]

When you attempt to close http://www.theselfdefenseco.com (linked from the FAQ page) it calls you a 'pansy'. I haven't seen crap this hilarious since the Charles Atlas and martial arts ads in the back of comic books in the 70's. "Defeat any attacker!"

yarijutsu, spear arts

Spear arts are called 'sojutsu'. Slap Japanese words together much?

[Webmaster]

Commander Nitro. Totally hilarious!

[Koshu]

The Budoshin demos I've seen have primarily displayed two-person kata or pre-arranged self-defense scenarios similar to most classical jujutsu demos seen in the U.S. I've not seen Budoshin's unscripted stuff, so can't comment on it.

When did "traditional Japanese jujitsu" ryu/ryuha become purveyors of home-study black belt courses?? http://www.selfdefense-martialarts.c...ensevideo.html (I'm sure Russ Ebert is wondering if I've been living in a cave, and he'll produce a link to Takenouchi-ryu's menkyo-by-mail program.)

[Jonathan Randall]

The Budoshin demos I've seen have primarily displayed two-person kata or pre-arranged self-defense scenarios similar to most classical jujutsu demos seen in the U.S. I've not seen Budoshin's unscripted stuff, so can't comment on it.

When did "traditional Japanese jujitsu" ryu/ryuha become purveyors of home-study black belt courses?? http://www.selfdefense-martialarts.c...ensevideo.html (I'm sure Russ Ebert is wondering if I've been living in a cave, and he'll produce a link to Takenouchi-ryu's menkyo-by-mail program.)

George Kirby's was one of the first Black Belt Home Study course ever offered. I think it started around the early 1990's or late 1980's even. It pre-dates the Karate Connection even.

[Koshu]

George Kirby's was one of the first Black Belt Home Study course ever offered. I think it started around the early 1990's or late 1980's even. It pre-dates the Karate Connection even.

Jonathan --- Yes, that's my understanding too (apologies for not using an emoticon). The demos to which I referred (which I saw on video tape, vs. in person) took place during that same timeframe.

[Mekugi]

George Kirby's was one of the first Black Belt Home Study course ever offered. I think it started around the early 1990's or late 1980's even. It pre-dates the Karate Connection even.

I know one school that has it beat. Yet, this went on decades earlier in the USA with THIS. There were even home study courses in Japan (I am looking to get my hands on some of that stuff...oh it is hard to get) that circulated around 1940-1950.

I'm sure Russ Ebert is wondering if I've been living in a cave, and he'll produce a link to Takenouchi-ryu's menkyo-by-mail program.

Why of course, it's right HERE.

[Jonathan Randall]

I know one school that has it beat. Yet, this went on decades earlier in the USA with THIS. There were even home study courses in Japan (I am looking to get my hands on some of that stuff...oh it is hard to get) that circulated around 1940-1950.

Yes, but they didn't offer black belts via home study, lol.

The first one (Yubiwaza) is really corny, but the Farmer Burns course was offered during a time when there was a strong wrestling culture in the United States. Heck, Abraham Lincoln, Joseph Smith (founder of the LDS Church) and many others were quite accomplished folk wrestlers. The Burns course just gave many a better understanding of the technical aspects. The "Yubiwaza" one was probably complete junk - and even were it not, it would be foreign to those in the U.S. living at that time who would have bought it. You can improve your technical understanding via a written course if you are already familiar with the basic principles as many young men were in the U.S. during Farmer Burns' era. Good links, though.

[Mekugi]

Yes, but they didn't offer black belts via home study, lol.

The first one (Yubiwaza) is really corny, but the Farmer Burns course was offered during a time when there was a strong wrestling culture in the United States. Heck, Abraham Lincoln, Joseph Smith (founder of the LDS Church) and many others were quite accomplished folk wrestlers. The Burns course just gave many a better understanding of the technical aspects. The "Yubiwaza" one was probably complete junk - and even were it not, it would be foreign to those in the U.S. living at that time who would have bought it. You can improve your technical understanding via a written course if you are already familiar with the basic principles as many young men were in the U.S. during Farmer Burns' era. Good links, though.

You're right....I am being elusive...and there is a deeper connect to said ryuha to said "mail-course".

Check it out

[Jonathan Randall]

You're right....I am being elusive...and there is a deeper connect to said ryuha to said "mail-course".

Check it out

Interesting. You always have great info and links.