"Aliveness" in Training - MACP YouTube Clip

**David Craik** · 06-15-2010, 10:58

Originally Posted by tom611

Never hear the term "Alive" training.

Saw the youtube and my only thoughts: very unrealistic. The guy with th rifle would have shot the other guy... end of story.

Let's just call it role playing by the untrained.

So the Army is untrained, interesting. If the guy with the rifle "would have shot the other guy", I wonder why it is that bayonet/close combat drills have been done for a couple hundred years?

Here's a revelation: rifles run out of ammo!

**Leopard** · 06-17-2010, 14:22

I have never heard the term "Alive" training myself. But I will say that when I am training, in my mind everything is REAL. We had some different classes with rubber guns and knifes. I thought it was funny when I looked down to make sure the "safety" was turned on for the rubber gun.

Also when I have the kinfe in my hand I handle it just like a real knife. In my mind there IS a blade there. There IS a bullet in the chamber. I have been exposed to guns and knives since I was young, and now saftey is just a habit. But I can see the others are not going there in thier minds. But then again they probably never accidently cut themselves either.

I also completely agree with the statement that people rely too heavily on protective gear. As for myself, I know that when I reach a certain belt rank, then the protective gear comes off. So I think as though I have nothing to protect me. I know there is a woman in my group who will block kicks with her gloves. She puts her gloves straight down so that her knuckles would be hitting the top of the other person's foot to block the kick. Now I know VERY little about things at this point, but it seems to me that your knuckles will not hold up to the top of someone's foot if they are kicking really hard. I see some others doing things that seem bad to me as well. BUT what is really bad is that they are winning sparring tournaments using those bad habits. So then maybe I am the one who is wrong.

So I guess if people aren't able to "get real" in their mind then the "Alive" training concept could do them some good. But what about the potential lawsuits?

**jjaje** · 06-26-2010, 20:29

I've stayed away from this thread. I generally put the term "aliveness" into the same category of the latest marketing buzz words as I place "reality based" or "Navy Seal training".

However, my wife bought me a recent copy of Black Belt magazine, to take on a business trip, and there was an article in it on aliveness. I've finally read the article, and watched the videos posted here.

First of all, regarding the article, I think it was short sighted and one sided, and not fair to traditional martial arts, or martial arts that don't put the words "reality based" on their brochure.

One positive thing in the article, was it talked about steps to get to aliveness. To paraphrase their steps, take a methodical approach to teaching and learning certain techniques, and over time increase the resistance, increase the speed and add followup or continuous moves.

Now, painting with a broad stroke here, one problem with many (not all) of the "MMA school of the week" or the "Commando Combat Club of the week" is that they do too much aliveness, too early, and it just looks like bad budo, because they are not as good at the methodical training concepts of proper movement and technique early on. Or as we say, they are just "muscle f'ing" each other.

That is one thing many of the traditional schools have going for them, solid, methodical, training and training methods, that can get you there, in a safe manner. Like finances, marriage and BBQ, slow and steady isn't all that bad after all.

Just my random thoughts.

**David Craik** · 06-26-2010, 20:51

Very good post, some interesting points.

People babble about this 'aliveness' as if training with a resisting partner and sparring is something new.

**doubleouch** · 06-27-2010, 23:06

Jeff, I don't think we disagree. My coach wrote that article. If you came by the gym you'd not see much muscle f'ing at all. Used to be that way in the old days. We're much more methodical about training now. You don't have to kick each other's asses every class to have aliveness in training. A tap on the forehead will remind you to keep your gloves up just as much as a solid punch in the nose...

**Jonathan Randall** · 06-27-2010, 23:45

Originally Posted by David Craik

Very good post, some interesting points.

People babble about this 'aliveness' as if training with a resisting partner and sparring is something new.

Yes, and that post was my point when I started this thread. Like most everyone else here, I am tired of the way "aliveness" is bandied about by people with little, if any, traditional training (or who consider stuff like the ATA as "traditional martial arts"), who dismiss styles and approaches of which they are entirely ignorant.

This clip did, IMO, show these soldiers gaining some skills they could more readily use than if they had simply been drilled in the "basic techniques". Of course, traditional arts also spar or otherwise test their skills against resistance. My feeling, though, is that the concept of "aliveness" has some real value, yet, because of it's frequent abuse by the ignorant is often dismissed too easily as the new flavour of the month.

**jjaje** · 06-28-2010, 08:22

Originally Posted by doubleouch

Jeff, I don't think we disagree. My coach wrote that article. If you came by the gym you'd not see much muscle f'ing at all. Used to be that way in the old days. We're much more methodical about training now. You don't have to kick each other's asses every class to have aliveness in training. A tap on the forehead will remind you to keep your gloves up just as much as a solid punch in the nose...

Your coach pretty much trashed traditional martial arts in that article.
So what you are saying is that you guys used to train the meathead way, but got smart about it, and took a cue from the traditional methods, then turned around and trashed them? That's classy. Or did they discover this on their own, thus reinventing the wheel?

**Mekugi** · 06-28-2010, 10:30

Originally Posted by Don Roley

Here is a blog I wrote on how things can go in Japan in the smaller Koryu I have been fortunate to study.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=517665286

Heeheehee....

You and Marc really get that stuff, huh! You guys must be some team!

-R

**doubleouch** · 06-28-2010, 16:10

Originally Posted by jjaje

Your coach pretty much trashed traditional martial arts in that article.
So what you are saying is that you guys used to train the meathead way, but got smart about it, and took a cue from the traditional methods, then turned around and trashed them? That's classy. Or did they discover this on their own, thus reinventing the wheel?

No, we don't exactly do things the traditional way. No kata, no endless repetition of movement, no one step sparring etc. We just moved from a full resistance model to a progressive resistance one. It allows us to dial up and down the resistance to just the point needed to test adequately. If you came by the gym you'd see lots of partner work done in an alive manner without either guy getting hammered. What we do doesn't look at all like what I know of traditional martial arts. My experience with traditional arts is about 15 years of TKD and Hapkido with a dozen or so teachers...

If you are truly interested in seeing how we differ from traditional arts I'd suggest reading
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/
Most of our teaching methodology is there. If instead you are interested in debate based on your dislike of his bashing of traditional arts we can do that too. Although I know that the admins here don't much like art bashing.

**Mekugi** · 06-28-2010, 19:23

Easy does it gentleman.

I remember when straight blast first opened in Portland. Are you still whipping people with belts?

**sean_stonehart** · 06-28-2010, 20:02

Originally Posted by tom611

Never hear the term "Alive" training.

Saw the youtube and my only thoughts: very unrealistic. The guy with th rifle would have shot the other guy... end of story.

Let's just call it role playing by the untrained.

Which is why the PLA in China trains xingyi with bayonets on their AK-47's...

**doubleouch** · 06-28-2010, 23:47

Originally Posted by Mekugi

Easy does it gentleman.

I remember when straight blast first opened in Portland. Are you still whipping people with belts?

Nope. We make them do an ironman roll until they are about to puke instead

**Mekugi** · 06-29-2010, 04:33

Originally Posted by doubleouch

Nope. We make them do an ironman roll until they are about to puke instead

If things go wrong, who has to clean that up??

**Albany Kali** · 07-23-2011, 21:19

“Aliveness” is a fancy way of saying “sparring.”

**oni-no-nunchaku** · 07-25-2011, 15:21

This thread has changed topics quickly.
To reply to Jonathan's original post:
I've never heard the term "aliveness", I usually avoid all things MMA, as it usually ends up being MMA vs. TMA arguement. Which I prefer not to take part in as MMA practitioners rather not be told they are wrong, and then it's all "you wanna mess with me?".
When I watched the clip, I actually approved of the training. It is rather realistic. As others have said, I didn't like the crazy amount of protective gear they were wearing. I find that this takes out the aspect of becoming accustomed to pain, which is really usefull in a real situation, as there will be real knives, not rubber knives. Another problem I had with the video, as far as "alive" training is concerned, is that there was an over all happy attitude in the training hall. There seemed to be no seriousness where everyone was laughing. I persoanlly believe that military training should be a serious event. --- just my two cents really.

As for Cane and Jeff's arguement:
As is obvious, there is no "perfect" way to train, as is also clear, there is no such thing as a perfect training method for "everybody". Basically everybody responds to different styles of training differently. Me, for example, I trained in TKD for many years before I joined a Muay Thai class. And even with my limited sparring time in TKD, I had no problem integrating myself into the sparring of the Muay Thai classes. In fact I found that Muay Thai had very little to offer me, appart from sparring, because most of the techniques were already learned from TKD.
I originally wrote a list of critisms of MMA for this post, but decided not to go into that, at least not on this thread. I would instead say, don't bash another way of training, because all training methods have their faults and merits. ---- once again, my two cents.

Cheerio

**Erik** · 07-26-2011, 15:02

Uh, Tom, this is a simulation where the rifle cannot shoot for some reason, be it surprise, jam, out of ammo, etc.

Just curious, Master Tom, what do you train?

This looked like great training to me for the domain of engagement it was trying to address. I don't see fault with it.

Aliveness is the same idea as randori. It introduces a lot of randomness and is the next step after drilling and choreographed maneuvering. I'd put my money every single time on the fighter who spends sufficient time training alive/randori/non-choreographed over the one who does not.