Lil Dragons and childrens MA programs

[Mekugi]

Anyone have an opinion on this?

http://www.lildragons.com/

More to:
How would you go about teaching kids? Especially from the 3-5 range....

[jjaje]

Not a fan of the 3-5 range for martial arts. A lot of the classes I have read about or seen seem to be geared towards physical games for balance and coordination and basic tumbling.
I'd probably get some mats, contract a gymnastics instructor part time, and have them do some gross motor skill tumbling, basically what gymnastic classes do in that age range.

[Abbax8]

Kids that age are probably more flexible than older students, their movements are fast due to their small size and if they are properly introduced to correct movements will become respectable M.A.'s as the grow older.

As a judo instructor, I could see working with kids that age, I have taught 5 year olds in the past. You teach proper falling, basic throws like Seoi-Nage, O-Goshi, O-Soto-Gari. You work on their attention span, proper behavior in the class and out of the class as well. You get creative with games that teach basic skills.

If you also tie that in with some kind of recognition for school work well done, the parents fall in love with you.

It is a challenge for the instructor, but it is also a ripe field to cultivate as most parents will pay for their kids to take class but will not pay to join themselves.

Dennis

[starkjudo]

While I've never been more than an assistant instructor, I've had my ideas over the years of what I'd image a school to be for the younger ones. I think gymnastics classes instead of martial arts for the 8 and under group is what I'd prefer. They learn body awareness and would be better prepared kinetically by the time they got to martial arts.

[wingchundo.girl]

I've been teaching a Lil' Dragon's Class for the last seven years. My first class had two boys -three year olds. I asked two of the moms who had older children in class, if they were willing, to let me teach their boys, at no cost. After all this was uncharted territory for me and if I was absolutely lousy at it, I didn't want to charge them for it. Plus it was really a learning experience and experiment on my part.

One was sentient, the other was not. I did manage to increase the attention span literally from 10 seconds to 1/2 hour.

What 3 to 5 years have taught me:

I was totally underestimating three year olds, their ability to focus and actually do some training. I didn't think I could ask much from them, but they really surprised me.

I stopped teaching three year olds. Too much work. It might work when you have only one or two, but you get seven or eight - it just took to much time to corral them. Although a parent sometimes sneaks one in, telling me the child's four. They take too much attention away from the four and five year olds.

Four and five year olds may have experience of pre-school or kindergarten, so they understand getting in line, keeping hands to yourself, raising your hand when you speak, and so on. This keeps things consistent for them. And if they don't have that experience, their future kindergarten teachers will sing your praises.

A class size about eight is about right. Every class dynamic personality wise is different every class, so you have to keep on your toes. If you have mostly girls, the class will be easier. If you have a newbie, then incorporating this new personality can be distracting. You need to nip behavior problems immediately. It helps if you have two eyes in the back of your head.

You can tell when they went to bed late. Lack of sleep - whirling around like tops.

They need a lot of affirmation. Don't brush this off to lightly. Give it to them when they deserve it. So look for "what they do right" all the time.

The classes have to be wild fun, because they will work really hard for you if they know that any minute wild fun will break out.

A woman instructor is the best choice. Close to what they are used to at this age, primary caregiver is mother, their first teachers are women.

You will need to learn a precise way of speaking. They will take everything you say literally. As soon as you say a word, they are off doing it, when you really meant to do it later.

They can wear you out, because your energy has to be high, exciting, and animated.

They are the most honest little people you will ever meet.

You are teaching them skill sets.

What can 4-5 year olds do? Here is just a small sample.

Since my art is wing chun based, they can do all the blocks, If you are familiar, we teach them four blocks. Taun sao, goang sao, pak sao, die jong. They hold their hands in prayer position at the centerline. Using blockers they learn quickly all the blocks, and they can learn to read my body motion. Some of them are phenomenal. We circle them up, and keep the banter up while swinging the blockers, like, "Go get it. Don't let it get that close to you. Aren't you going to let me hit you? I want to hit you. Maya won't let me hit her!" They love it.

We do a set of chung choie's (punches), we do a balance exercise called four count kick, we teach them ma bo, front thrust and side thrust kicks. All the while, praising and correcting, and making jokes.

Then mat work. They do somersaults, back rolls, and back break falls. You can teach them steering wheel to the mount. Then it's time for some games. We do one or two.

Jumping rings, alligator jump, rope swing, bowling for kids (they love this), commando crawl, the list goes on and on and on.

We sometimes just have a mat chat, or tell stories about safety, or I just let them get a chance to talk. Anything to get them thinking outside of the box.

They love consistency. They know I will change what we do every five to ten minutes. My classes are 50-55 minutes long.

The results:

I get to help children at a much younger age to get the ideas of discipline, honesty, no bullies allowed, self worth, and confidence. I can help make "course corrections" in behavior at the age of four or five, before it becomes too late. Attention spans increase dramatically. Manic children calm down. But I am a vigilant teacher, firm and non-judgmental. This takes a lot of work, because I am teaching them more than just martial arts.

They stay with the school for much longer than anticipated. Some of them that started at age four are still with me at age eleven. Eleven years of tuition. The average is three years above the norm. Can't argue with those numbers.

They are developing neurons exponentially at this age. They are sponges very willing to learn. They can learn martial art techniques, sometimes you just have to disguise them as a game. But do not underestimate their abilities. The only failure is when you underestimate the amount of time and effort you are willing to make.

Before starting this class, my old job gave me carpal tunnel, weak knees and ankles, and weak wrists. But the past seven years has increased my overall strength immensely. No problems with my joints at all. I have to get down to their level to look them in the eye, I have to stabilize them or hold them up. I love what I do.

Presently, even in these hard economic times in Michigan, my Lil' Dragons class is pulling in more students than the regular kids class.

Sorry about the long post, but you can probably tell, I love my Lil' Dragons class and am pretty passionate about helping kids. And martial arts is the perfect forum to do that.

Liz Ambrose

[wingchundo.girl]

Sorry, when I was talking about the extra years of tuition, I should have written seven, not eleven. But on the bright side, these kids are still with me so I expect another year or so of tuition. Yeah!

Liz Ambrose

[jjaje]

Thanks for the post Liz. It was great to hear from someone teaching that age group.

One thing you said made me think of a question. You said, "They are developing neurons exponentially at this age. They are sponges very willing to learn. They can learn martial art techniques, sometimes you just have to disguise them as a game." - I had always believed in the camp of only perfect practice makes perfect. If you do it wrong during practice, you'll do it wrong when it counts.

Part of me wonders if their youth, and continual growth process, means they can do something at a 3 year old uncoordinated/sloppy level, yet still get it right when they are older. Or if they are learning it wrong from an early age. My fear would be to continually trying to get them to do it "right", which may be too difficult for that age. How do you strike that balance?

[Mekugi]

I'm lurking and taking this in. Very good good information.

I want to make a video of some of the stuff they do at kindergartens here, where tumbling is a part of their daily activity. I think it's interesting.

[Abbax8]

To work with the very young, it helps to know what you are going to say and how you are going to say it, because if you fumble for words, then the eyes drift in other directions.

Example - to teach back breakfalls. Everyone on your back, you model what you want. Everyone bend knees, you model. Everyone- slap the mat - you model. Everyone scream as you hit the mat - you model - kids get quiet, parents faint, my kid is NEVER quiet always speaks at the top of their lungs.

You break techniques into smaller and smaller bits. Even at age 5, some kids will just get it and others will struggle. This is because some are primarily oral learners and some are primarily visual while others learn primarily by doing and moving.

Changing what you are teaching is also important to prevent boredom. For a 45 minute class, have at least 8 things to cover for a group of 5 year olds with two more in reserve should they be needed. You can teach the same thing in different ways, but change what the class is asked to every 5 minutes for a group of 5 year olds (on average). As they get used to things, time spent on one item will increase.

Dennis

[Mekugi]

I've been teaching a Lil' Dragon's Class for the last seven years. My first class had two boys -three year olds. I asked two of the moms who had older children in class, if they were willing, to let me teach their boys, at no cost. After all this was uncharted territory for me and if I was absolutely lousy at it, I didn't want to charge them for it. Plus it was really a learning experience and experiment on my part.....

BTW great post Liz. Thanks for this. Good stuff.

[Mekugi]

To work with the very young, it helps to know what you are going to say and how you are going to say it, because if you fumble for words, then the eyes drift in other directions.

Example - to teach back breakfalls. Everyone on your back, you model what you want. Everyone bend knees, you model. Everyone- slap the mat - you model. Everyone scream as you hit the mat - you model - kids get quiet, parents faint, my kid is NEVER quiet always speaks at the top of their lungs.....
Dennis

Great stuff...

[wingchundo.girl]

Thanks for the post Liz. It was great to hear from someone teaching that age group.

One thing you said made me think of a question. You said, "They are developing neurons exponentially at this age. They are sponges very willing to learn. They can learn martial art techniques, sometimes you just have to disguise them as a game." - I had always believed in the camp of only perfect practice makes perfect. If you do it wrong during practice, you'll do it wrong when it counts.

Part of me wonders if their youth, and continual growth process, means they can do something at a 3 year old uncoordinated/sloppy level, yet still get it right when they are older. Or if they are learning it wrong from an early age. My fear would be to continually trying to get them to do it "right", which may be too difficult for that age. How do you strike that balance?

Every new student that comes in, even Adult students can't do it exactly right in the beginning. And why would I let them do it wrong in practice just because they are four or five? (I stop teaching 3 year olds.)

Yes I do have kids that haven't been introduced to their feet yet or kids that won't or can't do things correctly in the beginning, but just like all students, they can learn proper technique.

Some are quick to pick up others are not. I just have to find what motivates each child and what kind of learner the child is, such as a verbal child, a mimic child, a child that needs me to hold their arm in the proper position. When the positions are correct, they are lavished with praise.

The key is to teach them certain attributes early. The one attribute that helps the best is focus and I mean intense focus. This is what games are really used for. Not to give them a break or have some fun, but to bring a level of intense focus to the forefront. The second is the ability to make quick decisions. One game, Dragon's Tale, trains them in both attributes and so many more. For attribute training, certain games will give you the results you want.
Games are one arena where children are firing on all cylinders, where they are actually multitasking, an area where their expertise in energy and imagine can be harnessed and used as a great learning tool. I recently wrote an article on this subject.

These attributes then get transfered to learning technique.

I have these children in Lil' Dragons for at least a year or more, so by the time they leave my class, they can test into the regular children's class at a much higher level than the a new student coming in at age six or seven.

[Carole]

The balance comes from a basic understanding of child development and how the brain works. It is entirely accurate that the more experiences a child has, the more capability they have of learning later. For example, the windows of opportunity for language development are considered closed by 6, yet we do not offer foreign language in schools until middle school due to funding most places. Studies still show, though, that children exposed to foreign language early on, even though they may actually forget everything- have a greater capacity for learning languages as an adult, simply because those parts of the brain were stimulated during peak growth periods. In terms of expecting perfect form from a preschooler- it simply isn't feasible because motor skills in children develop over time, and differently for each child. They are like flowers, each bud opens in its own time. That being said- motor skills are developed by using those skills. A child doesn't develop fine motor skills without handling blocks or crayons, nor will gross motor skills develop without opportunity to practice movements involving coordination. A childs capacity for developing physical skill as an adult is increased because the brain was stimulated in the areas involving motor skills at an early age. It's Ok to fine tune later, as they get older and progress you can let them know expectations are higher as both age and rank progress. And the behavioral benefits for young children, in a society where discipline and self control are frowned upon and seen as mutually exclusive to creativity and self esteem are unmeasurable.

[jjaje]

.... In terms of expecting perfect form from a preschooler- it simply isn't feasible because motor skills in children develop over time, and differently for each child. ... That being said- motor skills are developed by using those skills. A child doesn't develop fine motor skills without handling blocks or crayons, nor will gross motor skills develop without opportunity to practice movements involving coordination.

Which brings up the often asked question, Is Karate (or martial arts) the best activity for this? Are parents putting their little kids into karate so the little kids learn to defend themselves or are they putting them into karate for some other reason such as to have them work on their gross motor skills?

... It's Ok to fine tune later, as they get older and progress you can let them know expectations are higher as both age and rank progress.

Of course we always fine tune, even if you start as an adult. But unfortunately not everyone sticks around in martial arts for years, especially little kids. If they come in at a young age, work a lot of gross motor stuff and leave before being able to get serious about technique, did they really train karate? Or was it simply a group activity of varying things?

And the behavioral benefits for young children, in a society where discipline and self control are frowned upon and seen as mutually exclusive to creativity and self esteem are unmeasurable.

I know I'm in a minority, but that's one area where I don't like what the martial arts industry has done. I open the yellow pages and all the ads say "Respect", "Self Confidence", "Discipline" ... If I'm looking for a martial arts school, I'd want to go with the ad that says, "We'll teach you how to kick someone's butt before they are able to kick your butt"

Things like fitness and discipline are nice by-products of taking martial arts, but it should not be the primary reason for taking them, because I can probably do that better and less expensively somewhere else.

So how do you strike a balance with kids; perfecting their technique, getting positive by-products yet still providing solid self defense training? In our own school, the kids curriculum is different than the adult one, and is missing some of the really nasty stuff. I still cringe with the thought of teaching a real little kid how to strike another little kid. It's one of the reasons I think I like Judo or simple grappling instead of striking for small kids.

Welcome to the forums, I hope you don't take this post as argumentative, but rather as playing devils advocate to continue a good conversation to which you provided good feedback on.

[Carole]

I'm really hard to offend, so no worries. As a preschool teacher in my "regular life", I'm certain there are ton's of ways to teach children discipline and motor skills besides karate. I'm also equally sure many, many parents just don't, and pawn off responsibility on one activity or another, and blame everyone else for every discipline issue or lack of academic progress. Can it help in many cases, yes. I started training at a pretty young age for the times, at 9, and I didn't learn anything practical for self defense- no offense to my former instructors, until I had grown up a bit. I know the meditation helped me with self-control through my teen years, lol. Both of my kids I started training young- my daughter at 5 and my son at 8. In fact, I'm uncomfortable with many, many aspects of children training in the martial arts- as I have seen a lot in the recent years- little brown and black belts behaving like ninnies running around etc and schools occasionally unable or unwilling to discipline the disruptive student. Lowering standards to keep parents happy and kids moving up the ladder. I am too new and not a teacher in my current school or its childrens programs- and they do have a preschool "Superkids" program. Really that "argument" has to do with a whole different kind of balance- between paying the bills to keep a school open and staying true to your martial arts while meeting the demands of the market, and probably is addressed under another thread, but since I'm new I don't know where yet. Once a school decides to have little kids- then the question is how best to train them. I personally do a few seminars and private trainings, particularly for women and teen girls as a volunteer for sexual assault services because I know from personal experience that years of dojo training, in some cases, cannot prepare someone for the intensity of a real violent encounter. Preschoolers aren't emotionally or mentally ready for some things, and their self control isn't adequate enough to teach truly vicious techniques, so aside from the fitness aspects of kids training comes practical skill in avoiding risk, de-escalation, recognizing and avoiding predatory tricks- and last resort basics if something bad happens. Role playing and practice. People are actually often quite uncomfortable in my trainings because women and kids are trained societally to be nice, polite, non-agressive- and that violence is bad. Unfortunately, sheep do not defeat wolves, so training a confident, strong little person so they can, at least,not freeze- but use their voice loud and strong, and hopefully become the sheepdog and mentally justify violence in the right circumstances is not an exact science, but any way you do it involves some level of boundary crossing bluntness. When you ask 8-13 yr old girls their best self-defense tool, they always say a kick to the groin. When you tell them the way guys wear their pants today, good luck finding it without getting your foot tangled in their pants- they ll laugh and relax, but then tell them to break the knee so you have a shot at outrunning them, and it gets quiet. Then you pretend to be a broken kneed creepy guy trying to chase them, and it lightens up again. I don't think there is an absolute answer when working with kids- a few definate right and wrongs based on sound principle, and then just a determination to try to do the best we can.

[wingchundo.girl]

Which brings up the often asked question, Is Karate (or martial arts) the best activity for this? Are parents putting their little kids into karate so the little kids learn to defend themselves or are they putting them into karate for some other reason such as to have them work on their gross motor skills?

Parents are looking for someone to help them with issues in their lives and in their children's lives.

At the Lil' Dragon's age 4-6, my experience is that some parents seek help in getting control of a high spirited child, and are actually learning from watching the instructor. A lot of single moms or divorced moms are looking for good role models for their children. Others have children always punching and kicking already and feel they need a controlled outlet. Some are referred by physicians that thankfully understand that martial arts are unique in helping children with physical problems. Some parents are looking for an environment that is nurturing to a child with low self esteem. Some Dads bring in their kids because they love martial arts themselves. The variety of reasons are vast for parents with children at this age or any age for that matter. Self defense and working gross motor skills are just the tip of the iceberg.

I know I'm in a minority, but that's one area where I don't like what the martial arts industry has done. I open the yellow pages and all the ads say "Respect", "Self Confidence", "Discipline" ... If I'm looking for a martial arts school, I'd want to go with the ad that says, "We'll teach you how to kick someone's butt before they are able to kick your butt"

This might work well for older children or adults, but most parents already have a skewed view of martial arts as violence. Women who make most of the decisions when it comes to their children's classes don't like this approach. In this state, children ages 7-12 will be suspended from school for kicking someone's butt. Self discipline, self respect, and self esteem are the cornerstone of confidence that help to avoid a lot of bullying issues. We do however believe that when all other options have been exhausted then you are justified in defending yourself. We teach that a solid block followed by a good take-down usually does the trick. No one can say they saw him throw a punch.

In the inner-city schools for 13-16 year olds, they will allow a little more leeway when a bullied child finally defends himself. One teacher walked up to one of my 14 year old students and said to him, "Well, it's about time."

So how do you strike a balance with kids; perfecting their technique, getting positive by-products yet still providing solid self defense training?

When someone states "solid self defense" this means much more to me than just knowing how to kick someone's butt. It also means mental toughness, mental agility, as well as its physical counterparts. That is where you strike a balance with kids. Since many seem to agree that there are limits to their physical abilities, then we can concentrate on building mental as well as physical attributes that will serve them well later on.

At younger ages teaching, awareness, recognizing potentially dangerous situations and avoiding them, developing reaction skills and reading skills, blocking automatically, learning how to break fall to limit injury, using voice with authority, achieving physical goals that really promote real self esteem, exposing them small doses of stress so they don't freeze is part of the bigger self defense picture.

So it may be argued that it's not really learning karate or kung fu or true self defense, but the dojo or martial arts hall, it seems to me is the perfect place to learn the precursors of self defense. Where else?