Sin Moo's Multiple 10th Dans

**sidekick** · 07-10-2010, 11:03

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88597

The above link is to a thread that just started about Ji Han Jae / Sin Moo Hapkido and his promoting 3 Instructors to the rank of 10th Dan. Help me out here,............I just can't wrap my head around how there can be 4-10th Dan under the same system?

**Webmaster** · 07-10-2010, 14:00

Originally Posted by sidekick

I just can't wrap my head around how there can be 4-10th Dan under the same system?

Especially when you consider that Korean arts traditionally only go to 9th Dan.

**Rasputin** · 07-10-2010, 17:34

Originally Posted by Webmaster

Especially when you consider that Korean arts traditionally only go to 9th Dan.

Knowing their fractious history with Japan, I am surprised that they didn't choose to have their arts go to 11th Dan... Shades of Spinal Tap.

**DragonMind** · 07-24-2010, 13:06

Seems much ado about nothing. GM Ji is looking at his near retirement and setting the stage to avoid the mess that we've seen in the past when there is no clear succession (e.g. American Kenpo, Modern arnis, etc). GM Ji has obviously decided that as far as rank goes, these three gentlemen deserve the top rank in his system. That is not the same as designating them head of the system or even conferring some special title. The title DojuNim (head of system) still belongs to GM Ji until he appoints someone else. In KMA the label of GM is applied to anyone 8th Dan and up.

I seem to recall that even though judo and aikido goes to 10th Dan there are still more than one 10th Dan in each art. How is this any different? And given the close ties of HKD, Aikido, Judo, and JJ, why is anyone surprised that the rank structure is so similar?

**torbjork** · 07-26-2010, 01:43

Originally Posted by sidekick

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88597
... just can't wrap my head around how there can be 4-10th Dan under the same system?

Easy: Ji wants there to be 3 10th dans in addition to himself. It's his system, he can do exactly what he wants with it. It doesn't impact anyone outside of Sin Moo, so I can't wrap my head around why outsiders would care about it.

**Eliz** · 07-26-2010, 19:31

You make a very good point - it is his system to do with as he pleases. I always thought 10th dan was dojuNim though. My instructor promoted two 9th dans so I just assumed that was how it was done.

Thanks for clarifying

Originally Posted by torbjork

Easy: Ji wants there to be 3 10th dans in addition to himself. It's his system, he can do exactly what he wants with it. It doesn't impact anyone outside of Sin Moo, so I can't wrap my head around why outsiders would care about it.

**Mudori** · 08-14-2010, 11:21

Hi guys,

I wasn`t here for a long time ... I prefer to spent my time on training and making korean food instead of surfing the net .... however this topic is worth a discussion ....
everyone can do what he wants in his (hapkido) system but promoting people to this high ranks is a little bit weird, what i really think .... the 10th dan promotion is all about business, just like many other ranks in sinmoo hapkido Like 10 years ago .. people in europe where promoted to high ranks, even without testing their level, as long as they paid what Ji Han Jae wanted it was good. Some people with limited experience and very young age (just 20 !!!!) are promoted to 6th degree black belt and higher Hapkido is not only about technique ! When you know more about korean customs and culture then you definitively know that koreans don`t like this kind of situation. So it is no wonder why there are almost no high ranked Koreans in sinmoo hapkido or in the top list of Ji Han Jae students ....korean grandmasters don`t like the way Ji Han Jae is promoting a great part of his students and making business of it, some foreigners have ranks that even Koreans don`t have. Isn`t it strange that even though this seminar was held at Sunmoon University in Cheonan( Korea) which is one of the three famous Martial Arts university beside Yong In and Daelim University College ... there were almost no Koreans participating ! (what i see on the pictures) ... beside some GM`s from the KHF like GM Kim Nam Jae and some others, and GM Han Jung Do from GHF, was grandmaster Hwang Deok Kyu of Korea sinmoo hapkido there ?
They could have better organised this event in the US ... would have saved some money for the organisation, by the way Sun Moon University students represent the Federation of Korea Hapkido and learn techniques under supervision of GM Lee Chang Soo. Coming to this renowed grandmaster I can say that this kind of situations never happened in Jin Jung Kwan. Even though there a very good grandmasters in our kwan, the highest are 7th Dan, and only a few foreigners are 5th Dan and higher.
I personally think hapkido can never continue without Koreans, Koreans have a different mind, they keep developping the art of Hapkido, and since there body structure is different they can at least kick much better than western. Anyway it was a good idea from Ji Han Jae promoting 3 people instead of 1 ! Replacing a person with his charism is not that easy. Maybe they all have different abilities and they work on different continents. Anyway the lineage has been set for the future ... to be continued .....

**Michael Tomlinson** · 08-19-2010, 07:17

Having been on the mat with Doju Nim Ji Han Jae quite a few times I can attest to his unbelievable ability and knowledge of Hapkido. In my opinion there is no one on this planet that can match him in that regard, and that is why I saught him out and trained with him for a long time. He has personally made my Hapkido much much better. I will admit that some of what you say on here I have also seen and it also irritated me in the past. I am a lowly 5th dan at the age of 52 so I also don't have a lot of empathy for the high ranking 20 year old no matter what style or teacher he is under. That being said...I live by the tenant that I am in Hapkido to learn and workout...nothing more...the promotions are cool but I have never forgot why I work out, that is where the joy lies with me and not around the belt on my waist. The Buddhist concept of squashing unwanted desires burns in my heart and although I am far from perfect I continue to try and live a humble life with my family and just enjoy training, learning, and laughing. I do not have any illusions of being a grand dandy double triple master of anything...if I can eventually master my own heart and life that would be great...unfortunately I am still trying to do that...so I am not gonna say anything bad about all of this but it is what it is and I continue to train and learn...nothing more..

the one point you made that confused me was on the Korean being of a different body structure??? I don't get that one..humans are humans...and I respect Koreans totally but I don't see their body structure as being different?
Michael Tomlinson

**Mekugi** · 08-19-2010, 09:41

Originally Posted by Michael Tomlinson

the one point you made that confused me was on the Korean being of a different body structure??? I don't get that one..humans are humans...and I respect Koreans totally but I don't see their body structure as being different?
Michael Tomlinson

Shorter and overall, tinier?

**Michael Tomlinson** · 08-19-2010, 13:52

good question...I don't think so... I know tons of Koreans that are not small at all..they seem to be pretty close to the size of americans...my first Korean instructor is about 6'2" and over 200 pounds....
Michael Tomlinson

**DragonMind** · 08-25-2010, 14:26

Michael, it may be referring to hip structure. Asians in general have a pelvic girdle that is wider than a white male. In fact it is close to that of a white female. I read something many years ago about that being the cause of injury differences in TKD practitioners when whites attempt the same kicking position as Koreans. It was causing significantly more hip and knee injuries until the whites modified the kicks based on their anatomical differences. I remember the classic round kick being a prime example. Koreans are taught to bring the kicking leg up and perform the kick on a plane parallel to the ground. White males would have problems unless they changed the angle of the kick to a more angular rising trajectory. It also explained why white women had less trouble performing the kick than white men.

**Mekugi** · 08-25-2010, 22:58

Originally Posted by DragonMind

Michael, it may be referring to hip structure. Asians in general have a pelvic girdle that is wider than a white male. In fact it is close to that of a white female.

That's interesting, are there any studies on this?

**DragonMind** · 08-26-2010, 09:10

I've seen the pelvic girdle size comparison in a number of anatomy and rheumatology texts. The TKD article (it wasn't a controlled study but more observational) was at least 25-30 years ago and I've long since lost my copy. I've tried Google but haven't been able to locate a copy. I want to say it was in TKD Times or its predecessor but that is only a vague recollection.

**Mst Whalen** · 08-26-2010, 23:47

I have been gone toooooooo long ,I dream about pelvic girdles all the time

maybe it my age or the fact I am so far away ....

Keep the faith guys I will be back some day.

**Eliz** · 08-28-2010, 08:19

I would have to agree with you. I live near a large Korean-American commuity and the members of the community [that I know] can typically hold their own in the size catagory.

Originally Posted by Michael Tomlinson

good question...I don't think so... I know tons of Koreans that are not small at all..they seem to be pretty close to the size of americans...my first Korean instructor is about 6'2" and over 200 pounds....
Michael Tomlinson

That is very interesting, Barry. I wish I had known this when I was teaching full time.

Originally Posted by Dragonmind

.... it may be referring to hip structure. Asians in general have a pelvic girdle that is wider than a white male. In fact it is close to that of a white female.

**DragonMind** · 08-29-2010, 10:02

There are always outliers in any population but the average Asian is smaller than the average Caucasian. Introduce inter-breeding (i.e Korean-American) and I wouldn't be surprised that sizes tended upward in that group. Don't forget that MAs are also a self-selected population with higher than average physical attributes.

**rjrkihap** · 08-29-2010, 16:21

We, the white students, joke about not having the "Asian Gene" (in a friendly manor of course). I have not seen any studies, however, I have seen that "in general" the martial arts come more easily to women and Asians.

**Mark Jordan** · 08-29-2010, 17:07

As far as I know Traditional Korean Arts end at 9th Dan and it takes awhile to get to 6 or 7th dan which is considered a high rank. Up to 7th, Dans are awarded by the organization for the skill and ability demonstrated. Most never actually get to 8th or 9th Dan and it's the students who elect these instructors for higher Dan ranks (a cultural thing) because they find it hard to have the same rank as their seniors, so they give an "honorary" to their seniors and take a higher rank than they.In Hapkido, there are not a lot of 10th dan ranked practitioners and it's usually appointed by some association or "politically" motivated. I only know of 3 who were given a 10th Dan -Ji Han Jae, Founder of Sin Moo Hapkido, Founder of Contemporary Hapkido; Lim Hyung So, 10th Dan Hapkido grand Master and GM Kwang Sik Myung, 10th Dan World Hapkido Federation. His federation gave him a 10th Dan to honor him by the use of 10th dan rank since there was no where for him to go. Anyway, 10th Dan is a recent creation and is particularly used by those who became head of their own organization.

**Eliz** · 08-30-2010, 19:47

While I admit that good technique came easy to me, I had no idea that child bearing hips had anything to do with it.

Now I know!!! My background was in classical ballet and I just assumed the two studies (ballet and ma) were similar in their focus on movement, precision, and yes, tedium of repetition.

As an instructor I still did not question the fact that my female students had outstanding technique as many of them had also come from backgrounds in ballet, gymnastics, cheerleading, etc. All disciplines that focus on precise movement and body angles.

I do not recall that my male Asian students were exceptional technicians. All of the men were just strong ... so, so, so incredibly strong. It is difficult to criticize a slightly less than perfect kick when a 100 pound sand bag just went bouncing across the floor like a basketball.

Originally Posted by rjrkihap

We, the white students, joke about not having the "Asian Gene" (in a friendly manor of course). I have not seen any studies, however, I have seen that "in general" the martial arts come more easily to women and Asians.

**rjrkihap** · 09-04-2010, 19:24

Eliz, I like the previous ballet, gymnastics, cheerleading, etc. theory. That makes sense for the female martial artists, although it doesn't help me feel any better about being constantly beaten silly by the women of our school.

Ron