Is a Martial Arts Instructor in a Position of Trust?

**Leopard** · 07-23-2010, 13:28

I was just having a conversation with someone and I realized something. I have always viewed a Martial Arts Instructor and a Martial Arts Master as being trustworthy. Because of thier position, then trust is implied. The same way you would trust a minister, or police officer, then you should be able to trust a Martial Arts Master. After some experiences, I now see that perhaps that is the wrong idea to have.

What do you think and why?

**Erik** · 07-23-2010, 13:35

You're spending money so you would trust them like any other merchant.

They're teaching you a skill so you trust them that the still is authentic.

If they are claiming that the skill is useful in fighting, you're trusting them not t o teach you stupid ideas that will only get you hurt.

If you're trusting them with your kids then you're trusting them with your kids for all that implies.

Other than that, we're in the West and our values apply over cliche karate-kid movie examples that may or may not have anything at all to do with the realities in any given foreign martial arts culture.

Ministers and police are public servants. Marital arts instructors are not.

Now, if you happen to find a real gem, with the heart of a teacher/aunt/uncle/community-member, a Jigaro Kano or Mr. Miyagi, then whatever trust you build with them is specific to that person and your individual relationship with them.

**JWhiteSensei** · 07-23-2010, 13:54

I'm sorry Eric. I agree in some ways with you and in some ways I don't.

It's true we are Westerners. Why should we, if practicing an art, treat it any differently because of our location.

I am a Sensei. I'm not a merchant. Perhaps it's part of the Samurai spirit thing. Samurai hated the Merchant class. I don't "sell" an item. I "provide" knowledge and instruct. I teach. If you do that and do not build a bond between yourself and your students, you are either missing out on the heart of the art or you're doing it wrong and for the wrong reasons.

I am a minister although not a Christian minister. A minister is NOT a public servant. I am a Correctional Officer. Almost like a cop, just a different kind of jurisdiction. In that aspect, though unrecognized and unappreciated, I am a public servant.

Growing up and in my early 20's, Mr Miyagi and Qui Chan Kane were role models for me. I base a lot of my teaching philosophy from the ones I learned from them. You and others may belittle that, but it works.

To me the answer is a yes and no thing. I will say one thing that I teach my students. I have many who come to me from other styles. When they bow to me they want to look me in the eyes. They have been taught to look in the eyes when bowing because they should never trust their enemy / oponent. I tell them that I am their Sensei. If they cannot trust me, they can't trust anyone. the only time to look me in the eyes when bowing is before kumite. And do that out of respect, not mistrust.

**Erik** · 07-23-2010, 14:18

Jim, you're quite welcome to disagree with me. Mine is certainly not the "correct" opinion about stuff. I get to learn from people who challenge my ideas. No need to apologize at all.

I don't meant to belittle the archetypes we've discussed - not at all. I mean to argue that such a relationship with such a person is a luxury and is not to be expected from any given MA instructor.

It is certainly to be appreciated and cherished, though. What I described are the bare minimums that ought to be expected.

If a given dojo/jang has such a culture then, again, that's bonus, or at least something specific to that dojo. It shouldn't be expected.

The MMA places where I trained did not have such a culture (at all). The BJJ academy had a different feel to it. One of our coaches is in prison right now. The other is a great guy - I'd trust him with my kid. The Judo clubs where I trained did have that feel that the sensei is a pillar of the community and ought to behave as such (and they did - they were wonderful).

I'm not sure how much is Japanese MA influence or simply that I managed to find some really lovable instructors.

**TonyU** · 07-23-2010, 14:36

Trust goes both ways and should be earned not expected.

**Abbax8** · 07-23-2010, 15:43

There are different levels of trust, and each is earned. It is a sad fact that anyone can claim to be a Martial Arts instructor. For that matter people claim to teachers of all kinds of things.

In the very beginning there is no trust only curiosity on the part of the student. If the student is smart they observe some classes before they decide to try a class. The instructor should also during the first few classes watch the student to determine if they are a good fit with their class.

As time goes on, both will ideally grow in their trust of each other.

If as a parent I am looking at another person to teach my kids, I will put them through a much more thorough screening than if I am to be the student.

Dennis

**torbjork** · 07-23-2010, 16:02

so you trust them that the still is authentic

Ah tell ya, thish here schtill ish real arth...owr...uh, good!

...Sorry

In my opinion it's pretty dangerous to generally trust anyone based on what their title is, whether they bestowed it on themselves or someone else did.

Trust the person once you know them to be trustworthy, not the office.

**Cliff Hargrave** · 07-23-2010, 17:23

Originally Posted by TonyU

Trust goes both ways and should be earned not expected.

/end thread

**Leopard** · 07-23-2010, 18:04

You all make some good points.

**Koshu** · 07-24-2010, 00:17

Prior to a student enrolling in a school, I agree with Erik: we're merchants in the student's eyes, plain and simple, and no trust is implied (Jim started a thread that chronicled his misadventures and eventual triumph in establishing a dojo -- as a business [congrats, by the way Jim!!]).

But after mutual trust is earned, and even once it's grown quite strong, it can be tested and sometimes it fails on one or both sides (sounds like Morgan may have been hinting at this type of scenario). Can it, or should it then be re-earned? That's not something we can generically answer since there are so many potential factors: some aspects of the trust between a student and teacher are synonymous with those of relationships with other close peers, even relatives (what if your teacher is also your parent, or your significant other [we've had case studies appear here on BudoSeek in the past]?); others are unique to the martial arts, others are unique to a given school; and even if all else remains the same, no two people are alike.

Why the distinction between teachers and masters in the original post Morgan? My experience is that I have great trust for my teacher, and yet I've had more trust for some of my sempai (more-experienced training partners) than for some of the "masters" who are senior to my teacher, for what that's worth.

**Leopard** · 07-24-2010, 00:56

Thank you for your input.

I made a distinction between Master and Instructor for a reason. I posed this question to a different group of people. Then the question came up as to who exactly I was referring to. Some places a Master and Instructor are one in the same and other places they are different. Some make a distinction between the 2 and others say they both should be viewed the same. So I thought I would make a distinction here.

You are right there are many varying factors. But I would think that the position of either Master or Instructor should be owed a certain amount of respect. And for that respect wich is given, a certian standard of behavior and ethics should be displayed by a Master or Instructor. However I have a very limited amount of experience in 1 martial art. Many here have vast experience across several martial arts. So I posed the question here.

**TonyU** · 07-24-2010, 08:52

Respect is a two way street as well. I think you're confusing expectation with trust.
I pay and I expect and instructor to teach me, competently. Eventually a level of trust is earned and gained.
Martial art instructors are no different than anyone else that may earned their position. It still doesn't mean that they're good at or that they are a good person.
I've been to one school where I payed and expected to be taught the art in a competent manner. They didn't so I no longer trusted them to that so I left.

**JWhiteSensei** · 07-24-2010, 10:31

I actually agree with pretty much everything that has been said here. Perhaps we should look at it this way. Morgan said

"I have always viewed a Martial Arts Instructor and a Martial Arts Master as being trustworthy. Because of thier position, then trust is implied. The same way you would trust a minister, or police officer, then you should be able to trust a Martial Arts Master."

Let's simply substitute the words minister and police officer with the words plumber and doctor. In reality I think you could probably use any words except perhaps used car salesman or telemarketer. The thing is, and it's been stated here, when you pay for a service or an item, you expect that service or item to be of a certain quality. It can be argued that your expectations are your own fault but you have them never the less. The provider of those services has a certain obligation to ensure that the product / item meets certain qualifications. This is where the conflict arises in anything. The quality doesn't meet the expectation.

I think as Martial Artists and especially instructors we have a certain obligation. It is our job, almost a duty, to provide what is expected of us. It is also a really good idea to sit down with a potential student and learn from them what their expectations of us are. I had three teen aged students. They had all been home schooled and pretty much kept away from society in general by over protective parents. All they knew of the world in a lot of cases is what they had learned from computers, movies, and video games. These kids actually believed that in six months I would have them levitating, running across tree tops, walking up walls, shooting fire balls from their hands, and god knows what else. Needless to say that after they realized these things were not going to happen they drifted away. One did remain for a while. I suppose he thought that if he showed Sensei his determination to learn that eventually I would open the Secret Book and teach him. My mistake: I had no clue that these sort of things were expected of me. Had I known, the situation probably would not have played out as long as it did.

The pre-ceeding was an example of unrealistic expectations. Most people have very real expectations of us. To put it in a business sense, they pay for a service and they expect quality. They trust us and they expect a bit of honor from us. Nothing is wrong with that. When I was a Lieutenant my Warden was not a very honorable man. He put on a mask. That's another story. He did tell me one thing that I have always remembered. He said, "Jim, ALWAYS do the right thing". I took that to heart and I take it into my dojo. The things we all stand for supposedly, are the things that will always serve to keep us out of any discrepancy. Honor. Integrity. Honesty. Bravery. Indomidable Spirit. Persistance. Loyalty. These things we simply need to uphold and pass on to our students.

In the end, what is wrong with us upholding these principles? Whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, you are a role model. You are in a position of trust. With all of your flaws and weakenesses your students still look up to you. With all my grammer and spelling errors I still hope to make a point (LOL). If you don't realize or believe this, then (IMO) you have no business teaching. We can't all be Mr. Miyagi but what is the harm of trying? Are you in this to simply make money, or are you in it to make a difference in someone, perhaps a kid's, life? Are you in it as a business or are you in it to possibly teach someone the skills they will need one day to save their life or the life of someone else? Believe it or not, there is a balance between the two ideals.

I'm not being judgemental. I'm just suggesting that if you don't consider yourself in a position of trust then you need to have several cups of coffee and wake the hell up. Everytime you stand in front of your students, you have placed yourself there as someone they look up to. The respect is earned over a period of time but a certain amount of it comes as soon as you strap on your uniform and your belt.

Wow, that was a long rant. I need to shut up now or I'll type all morning. 'Sides I think I pretty much just paraphrased what has already been said.

**Prince Loeffler** · 07-24-2010, 12:19

I'll simplify my reply to this thread: I trust any individual regardless unless they give me a reason not to.

**Koshu** · 07-24-2010, 12:41

Here's a guy I sure as heck wouldn't trust and don't respect based on how he's selling himself, but someone's buying in:

Jim --- You're right that teachers have obligations to do right by students. We should definitely do our best as we know how. Anyway, Morgan seems to be referring to breaches of trust (and respect

).

What Prince said.

**JWhiteSensei** · 07-24-2010, 13:27

Originally Posted by Koshu

Here's a guy I sure as heck wouldn't trust and don't respect based on how he's selling himself, but someone's buying in:

Jim --- You're right that teachers have obligations to do right by students. We should definitely do our best as we know how. Anyway, Morgan seems to be referring to breaches of trust (and respect

).

What Prince said.

THAT'S a good one!

**Leopard** · 07-24-2010, 14:25

Thank you all for your replies. I really liked what you had to say Sensei Jim. I would certainly never expect a Sensei to act like a used car salesman.

If a Sensei is telling me to have a good attitude when I come to the dojo, then they should too.

If a Sensei is telling me to act with integrity, then they should too.

If a Sensei says that I should act honorably by wearing my Gi out of respect to the Martial Art, and my school, then they should do the same when wearing thier Gi.

I would apply this behavior to the dojo or martial arts events. I am not so unreasonable that I would hold it against a Sensei if I saw them drunk at a bar, and they did something stupid.

**Prince Loeffler** · 07-24-2010, 15:27

Originally Posted by Leopard

Thank you all for your replies. I really liked what you had to say Sensei Jim. I would certainly never expect a Sensei to act like a used car salesman.

If a Sensei is telling me to have a good attitude when I come to the dojo, then they should too.

If a Sensei is telling me to act with integrity, then they should too.

If a Sensei says that I should act honorably by wearing my Gi out of respect to the Martial Art, and my school, then they should do the same when wearing thier Gi.

I would apply this behavior to the dojo or martial arts events. I am not so unreasonable that I would hold it against a Sensei if I saw them drunk at a bar, and they did something stupid.

You've been a sensei for how long ?

**Leopard** · 07-24-2010, 17:47

I am not a Sensei. I am a student. I have limited expereince with martial arts at 1 dojo. But I think I should educate myself on what would be generally acceptable in the martial arts world.

**Mekugi** · 07-24-2010, 23:30

I have this theory, I've been working on it for a while, although it has been right there in front of me the whole time: people are people. They are flawed, no matter what position they hold or how lofty they are. There is no escaping that. It's just the way things are.

I do believe there is a misconception about authority in general. One that leads us to be easily fooled by the flash and pomp.

For example, a few years back a test was conducted on a University campus. One person was dressed up as campus security, another was dressed up as a regular Joe. Both asked passers by to pick up an item of trash that was in the walkway and put it in the trash-can that was nearby. Almost all of the people asked by the uniformed guard did as instructed. Almost none did so at the request of the common man. So, there is some psychology that goes on there. It can be abused, however reasoning should be the victor in any circumstance.