Newb questions about bujinkan controversy and history

[Goemon]

so wait..."Essence of Ninjutsu" wasn't ghost-written but "History and Tradition" was?
Again, How is this known? I mean no disrespect to anyone, just curious as to where this information comes from?
This interests me because I own both these books and would like to know if one of them is not trustworthy.
And what's this about false claims? I was just stating my opinion, which was my right the last time I checked. Some of it was just my opinion, but none of it was a lie. A lie is putting someone else's name on your book for "legitimacy" reasons (meaning "to make it seem more legitimate", right?)

[Jon-Bhoy]

Well I was told by my seniors in the Bujinkan, that it was ghost written, and not in a way saying it was bad...just the fact that it was. I also own almost all of Soke's Japanese books..(the smaller black ones) and all of the information/photos come from those books.

Thats all..nothing else.

[Don Roley]

Or perhaps you are referring to the idea of the samurai being tyrannical and brutal?

More like that. It is not that they were not cruel, but rather the image of the ninja being a resistance movement against samurai rule is way off. As I said, I am on the road right now in New York and will be able to deal with this better later.

As for "History and Tradition" being written largely by Hayes, I know this because this is what I was told while in Japan. It is actually a whole bunch of things taken from some of Hatsumi's earlier works along with some commentary by Hayes that he thought was needed to help westerners understand things Japanese already knew. Sadly, some of the things he thought were true in those early days weren't. The image of the ninja as resistance fighters, straight swords and the use of things like "fire stances/techniques" are among the problems.

[Goemon]

Thank you, don. I was wondering when someone would give me a clear explanation for all this. I know I'm the ignorant newb ninja right now, so please just bear with me if I have a lot of questions. I am extremely dedicated to the art and so I do not want to disgrace it by spreading incorrect ideas. From what I see, Ninpo has suffered from enough misrepresentation as it is (just ONCE, I'd like to see a ninja movie that at least TRIED to tell the true story.)
If you have time, I am curious about the whole elemental stances/techniques thing, now that you mention it. I have heard some people hint that the whole idea of certain stances and techniques being of this element or that (like Jumonji being a "fire stance" or ichimonji being a "water stance", etc.) was not a japanese invention, but the invention of Stephen Hayes or someone else. If I had to guess, I'd say he probably just misinterpreted something and ran with it, but that's a total shot in the dark. So is the whole elemental thing based on japanese tradition, or is it a traditional concept that got a little distorted in translation?
And the whole thing about Ninja not being a resistance against the samurai...Well, when you write that blog on the subject, I would be plenty interested to read it. I must admit that this is one I really thought was true, at least in part.

[Don Roley]

Well. I already wrote a blog here about getting rid of the godai. You might want to start with that.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I looked up the blogs against Don's profile (as a newb user might do) and couldn't find the article in question. Here is the link to it. Another great piece from Don, who knows what he knows and can be verified by others who know that he knows.

[Don Roley]

Thanks David for correcting my mistake and helping out. I forgot that it got converted from a blog to an article.

Give me a few weeks and I will try to tackle the rather complex subject of where the ninja came from and their status in society. There is a lot of things that need to be explained instead of just being laid out. Many of the notions we have are wrong and the situation in historical Japan is quite different from just about anything we are familiar with.

[Goemon]

Read the godai blog, and found it rather enlightening. My shihan teaches some godai (almost certainly something he picked up from training with Hayes) but there isnt a lot of emphasis on it. Still, if it is not a traditional part of ninjutsu, I agree that it should be abandoned. I have a book called "ninja realms of power" by Hayes and it details his investigations into the practices of several spiritual traditions which had, or are alleged to have had, an influence on the development of Ninpo. I believe the specific traditions were those of Shugendo, Sennin, and (naturally) Mikkyo. This explains where he probably got the godai. Hayes mentions the elemental theory in relation more to the shugenja than any other group.
Maybe he got confused because he knew there was a connection between mikkyo/shugendo and Ninjutsu, and there is one set of kata (Sanshin) where each kata is named for the five elements. Therefore, he assumed that the elemental theories he learned from studying mikkyo and shugendo applied to ninpo as well.
What I really wonder is whether or not these were simply mistakes, or if he knowingly "filled in the gaps" to make up for knowledge he did not have...

I would like to offer a theory which has not been presented...when I first read that there was a five-element system in Ninpo, I was a little surprised because I was involved in the study of various systems of occultism at the time (i'm not necessarily proud of that, but I promise I never sacrificed anyone or anything!) and the system as he laid it out reminded me A LOT of the things I had learned while studying neopaganism, mideival grimoire magic, Druidism, and what some people call "high ceremonial magick". Before anyone judges me for that, bear in mind that I stopped being involved in this movement when I realized that it was mostly bull, and most of the people involved in it were doe-eyed sheep who would believe anything.
As near as I can tell, the whole four/five element theory originated in ancient greece and was very publicly debated by ancient greek philosophers. I think it has always been a part of western occultism in one form or another. The pentagram was originally invented by pythagoras to represent the five element theory. Each point represents a different elemental principle, and the top point represents Spirit or void.
When I did an extensive study on the five-element doctrine, composed from many different occult books, I found that the ideas published in Hayes' books fit in quite neatly. Maybe a little too neatly.
Has anyone considered the possibility that Hayes was trying to bring Ninpo into line with other systems of philosophy which he had studied, or the possibility that he may have filled in the gaps of his knowledge with things he read elsewhere? It is clear the man had a great interest in pursuing mystical knowledge, and he would likely have started his search a little closer to home than Japan.
Oh yeah, and I was curious if the elemental hand signs which he published are equally illegitimate...so that I will know to stop using them when meditating as I occasionally do.

[Don Roley]

Oh yeah, and I was curious if the elemental hand signs which he published are equally illegitimate...so that I will know to stop using them when meditating as I occasionally do.

Unless you were personally instructed by a teacher who is qualified under a real teacher, etc, then it is best if you do not fool with it at all.

I have mixed opinions about things like that, but I do know a few folks that seemed to have ended up seriously messed up after trying to figure things like that from books and such.

[Goemon]

wow...that's a shock. If I might inquire, how exactly has it been known to mess people up?

[Tripitaka of AA]

I speak without knowledge of anything remotely related to Bujinkan, but I can see many opportunities for mental health issues and getting seriously confused if people dive head-first into medititive/hypnotic/religious practices without a "guide". I would imagine you could find examples from a host of different backgrounds. It is something that happened a lot in the early 70s when people were first drawn to Indian/Tibetan/Japanese practices, without having been brought up in the relevant culture. It is quite possible to make yourself ill, without necessarily involving anything more than thought and time.

[Ramirez]

I know nothing about the Bujinkan except if there is legitimate ninjitsu your best and likely only bet is the Bujinkan.

But as far as the mind altering stuff, forget about it even from supposedly legitimate teachers. No good can come of it.

If you want some kind of spiritual development, buy a Stratocaster, a Marshall amp and learn the entire Deep Purple album Machine Head. It will also do wonders for your finger dexterity.

[Don Roley]

wow...that's a shock. If I might inquire, how exactly has it been known to mess people up?

I am not sure of the method that it messes people up. All I can say is that I have known about three people who have started doing stuff like that on their own. Years later, they seemed more erratic and less in control of their mind. In at least one case someone I knew was almost killed by a stroke at an early age when the chances of it were almost zero.

Many of the texts I have read on the matter in both English and Japanese put in cautions about the use and study of the material. As I said, I have my doubts about the efficiency of the stated goals, but after the examples I have seen I am really wary of trying anything without someone to guide and step in if there is trouble.