Years to learn koryu - years to get initiation.

[Mekugi]

Sure you could say Zen, Daoism (Taoism) would be my first inclination as a root source. I wouldn't go too far with the Zen thing though. IMHO Zen in the martial arts has been lain over it like a blanket, especially since it became a "required" religion for anyone serving the shi class during the edo era. There's a pretty good article here: http://www.samurai-archives.com/bdij.html about Zen and polity in Japan. Pretty cool stuff.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Shu Ha Ri, is a concept that has been around a long time. Forums like this have had the chance to explore it a few times.. and there is nothing wrong with doing it again. Some of the wisest masters have taken time to write their interpretations of its meaning and relevance to today. Takamura Sensei's full essay on the subject can be found here.

On E-Budo, a while back, we discussed a few other articles and definitions. That may be worth reading if you haven't come across this before. See this thread, which contains some links to essays by various people.

The very first time it was explained to me, the simplest analogy that seemed to capture the basic point, was that of "learning to write". First stage must be to copy as the letters as closely as possible, variation is frowned upon. As you get more competent, you can start to use joined-up writing, and as you begin to master the process you can adjust the writing to allow your own personality to show. Perhaps the Ri stage would be to create your own font, that would be unique and original yet still legible to others. As Takamura Sensei's article stated "This unique approach to learning has existed for centuries in Japan and has been instrumental in the survival of many older Japanese knowledge traditions. These include such diverse pursuits as martial arts, flower arranging, puppetry, theater, poetry, painting, sculpture and weaving."

[Tripitaka of AA]

Now that I've revealed the depth of my knowledge (or rather, the lack of depth), I'd like to ask;

Is Shu Ha Ri from China? My Japanese wife (who hadn't heard of the concept until she started Shorinji Kempo in her 20s), said it "sounds" Chinese. Anyone got a historical source for this?

[Vagabond]

Taoism yeah, but Taoism focuses more on the logical moral applications of something. Where as Zen is possibly a more 'Spiritual' approach. I just see incorporating something into your life as more spiritual (I use that term very loosely) than logical. That is why I chose Zen. What do you think Mr. Ebert?

[Jeff C.]

Patrick, I know I am not Mr. Ebert, but I am pretty sure he doesn't mind me, or anyone else, continuing to participate in this converstaion.

I think you are getting too wrapped-up in the exotic terminology. There is nothing spiritual or overtly philosophical about the "shu ha ri" method of transmission. It happens in everyday life, in every country on the planet. Boxers do it. Electricians do it. Baseball players do it. Chess players do it. Artists do it. It is a perfectly logical progression of passing a skill, along with creativity, to another. It did not originate in any one country, philosophy, or religion. No country, culture, philosophy, or religion can claim creation of the process. With that said, yes, the term "shu ha ri" in a Japanese context certainly has Japanese culture imprinted upon it, but you have to keep in mind that the process itself is quite logical, quite simple, and the process has had a parallel evolution in many different countries and cultures.

Teaching another how to paint a picture or play chess follows the exact same progression.

Jeff Cook

[Tripitaka of AA]

Now that's food for thought right there. Is it the most basic and universal model for learning, or is it a "unique approach to learning" as Takamura described it in 1986?

PS. I just realised that Toby already made a link to the same essay that I offered above. And it is "his" essay to use, after all.

[Mekugi]

Patrick, I know I am not Mr. Ebert, but I am pretty sure he doesn't mind me, or anyone else, continuing to participate in this converstaion.

Is my dad chatting on the forums!?

I think you are getting too wrapped-up in the exotic terminology. There is nothing spiritual or overtly philosophical about the "shu ha ri" method of transmission. It happens in everyday life, in every country on the planet. Boxers do it. Electricians do it. Baseball players do it. Chess players do it. Artists do it. It is a perfectly logical progression of passing a skill, along with creativity, to another. It did not originate in any one country, philosophy, or religion. No country, culture, philosophy, or religion can claim creation of the process. With that said, yes, the term "shu ha ri" in a Japanese context certainly has Japanese culture imprinted upon it, but you have to keep in mind that the process itself is quite logical, quite simple, and the process has had a parallel evolution in many different countries and cultures.

Teaching another how to paint a picture or play chess follows the exact same progression.

Jeff Cook

I second that. Getting spun into a bunch of fancy terms never helps anything; I was talking mainly about the historicity (which I may be wrong about...gonna look it up now that Tony mentioned it) of the thing, which *I think* came from Taoism.

Yet I digress, what Jeff said is right on the button. The claptrap of the chicken and the egg that I am so fond of chewing on really doesn't do justice to the truth, which is that this type of thinking is not particular to Japan, China, Europe, et al. It's universal, more or less, and is an attempt to describe a natural state of the way we all learn. That it to say we all crawl, walk and then run.

That being said I am going to jump back and see if I can find a historic link to China.

[Jeff C.]

I want to make it clear that my opinion is not in conflict with Threadgill Sensei or Takamura Sensei. Shu-ha-ri IS a traditional Japanese method of transmission. It just happens to also be a method of transmission that is traditional elsewhere too.

Jeff Cook

[Vagabond]

Yeah I get it. Thank you Mr. Cook. My understanding has come from those fancy term and what not so I explain my understanding in those terms, but I feel I am on the same page. Notice how I said I used Spiritual loosely. I just lacked a better word to use. Instead of having to think actions and reactions become "No mind", Reflex, or just common sense. I read what you wrote and I feel that is exactly as I intended to write what I did, just without as much academic BS. Very straight forward.

As for the historic link in China I could see that being a part of this Shu-Ha-Ri thing. I feel that Shu-Ha-Ri is found in Zen, which is heavily influced by Taoism and Zen is said to be a meeting of Taoism and Buddhism. Since you said Zen was the common religion of the people, it would make sense that a lot of Chinese practices would come from that as well since Taoism and Buddhism were brought to Japan from China (originally India).

I was not trying to exclude anyone, just specifying to whom I was responding to.

[Eric Joyce]

Now that I've revealed the depth of my knowledge (or rather, the lack of depth), I'd like to ask;

Is Shu Ha Ri from China? My Japanese wife (who hadn't heard of the concept until she started Shorinji Kempo in her 20s), said it "sounds" Chinese. Anyone got a historical source for this?

Hello David,


I actually found this on-line this afternoon. It's the CMA version of SHu Ha Ri.

di = (Earth) Basic level/fundamentals.
ren = (Human) Ready to learn level.
tian = (Sky/Heaven) No conscious thought/flow like the elements.

I have no idea if this is totally accurate of not, just something I found on-line today I thought I would share.

[Mekugi]

Okay so I did a little research as well (very little,) the best I came up with is this:

There are three main theories as to where Shu Ha Ri stemmed into wide use.

1) Sen no Riku- a "Sajin" (tea ceremony performer) who brought a school of tea ceremony over from China. He wrote a poem that contains an outline, apparently.

2) Zeami - associated with Gagaku style music and Noh theater, he wrote this stuff up as "Jo-Ha-Kyu" in his books "sando" and "Kadensho". http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/ind...itle=Jo-ha-kyu has a little about it in English.

3) Kawakami Fuhaku- Another Sanjin who in 1794 wrote the "Fuhaku Hikki" which goes:
"Shu wa Momoru
Ha wa yaberu
Ri wa hanaru
To moshi so ro"

So it seems that this came over from China, more or less, with tea ceremony (two out of three guesses).

-R

[ben]

You could also see shuhari as the old fashioned "rote learning" way of doing things. It's great for some areas of learning, terrible for others. In education generally, Eastern cultures tend to emphasise the "shu" end of the spectrum, Western ones the "ri". b

PS - Russ, shuhari and johakyu are not equivalent.

[Mekugi]

PS - Russ, shuhari and johakyu are not equivalent.

Didn't say they were bro!

PS I fixed your signature

[Tripitaka of AA]

Regular readers will know that I am a veteran Newbie. An eternal novice. A long-term armchair fan who loves to read what the smart people have to say. I often ask questions, without doing much of my own research to find the answers. This "Shu Ha Ri" drift is fast becoming worth a thread of its own. I'd like to thank those who have taken the time to bring answers to my ill-informed and impertinent questions.

I was working last night, and had the time to let my mind wander over a few aspects of what we have described so far. If I understand it correctly (and I really do hope you'll put me straight if I haven't), the concept of "Shu Ha Ri" describes the process of learning. It can be applied to everything from learning to write, to learning to wield a katana. It is a Japanese phrase adopted from Chinese origin, which is often used in reference to the martial arts (and other traditional pursuits ) to describe the "transmission" of the art. It defines and prescribes the process, and is used to remind pupils of where they are in their journey.

Jeff made the point that "learning a skill" is a fairly basic progression that is to be found in.. well, everything! When you go through the points of Shu Ha Ri, there doesn't seem to be any earth-shattering revelations, just a description of a process as fundamental as "crawl, walk, run" or "night follows day". If I understood his point, it was that to concentrate on the Zen-ness, or the cultural traditional aspect of the phrase would be to miss the obvious truth contained within it. Shu Ha Ri is intended and used as a definition to identify the stages of learning, so that learning itself can be broken down into bite-sized chunks. It doesn't change anything to view it like this, it just makes it easier to recognise. In a functional usage, Shu Ha Ri can be used as a sign-post to help people to gauge their position.

I struggled a bit, trying to think of a Western-sourced proverb, phrase or idiom that defines this process in the same way as Shu Ha Ri. Has anyone got something that does the job? I may be just too dense to think of an obvious parallel.

Something popped into my head about how the Bible is a source for so many phrases that come up in everyday usage. It contains many parables and stories that are used to express concepts that are universal and cross all the boundaries. Things like "charity", which is something that surely existed before the tale of the Good Samaritan. Or "forgiveness", which is a big thing for Christians, but was presumably around in one form or another everywhere over time. The Japanese kotowaza are proverbs, idiomatic phrases and four-character idioms, that are often taken from classical Chinese. The kotowaza often define concepts and ideas with a simplicity that survives translation, but is still worth elaborating... see some of the examples on the Wiki page.

What else do we know about Shu Ha Ri? What should we know? Anyone else got something to add to this thread? Please don't leave me blabbering on like an idiot if I've completely missed out something important .

[Mekugi]

I remember reading something about labor guilds in the Dark Ages of Europe, they had a rough equivalent in apprenticeships. I was looking up the term "journeyman", I stumbled upon that but have since lost track of the whole thing.

[Koshu]

You could also see shuhari as the old fashioned "rote learning" way of doing things. It's great for some areas of learning, terrible for others. In education generally, Eastern cultures tend to emphasise the "shu" end of the spectrum, Western ones the "ri".

I actually think westerners are partial to a take on ha: solo and multi-person kata on steroids. Notable examples: marching band field shows, jujutsu duo, American cheerleading competitions, Zumba, and of course over-the-top routines with lighted weapons and the skills competitions at which they're demonstrated.

[AlexJK]

What chance does the teaching/learning dynamic of shu-ha-ri have of survival in Japan where many once traditional crafts and arts are becoming over-restricting, manual oriented, extensions of a poorly developed "shu"? What chance do people have to get past the shu level when Japanese schools stifle individuality, creative expression, and critical thinking? Shu-ha-ri is a beautiful, complex, vivid, albeit frustrating, teaching/learning dynamic. However, I cannot help but feel that, like many of Japan's traditional arts and crafts, keeping people locked in a glorified shu, where it becomes the end instead of the means, is going to sever from it's core the sensitivity and intuition needed to not only learn this way, but to utilize this method of teaching in the future. What happens when the next generation of teachers, lacking the experience and "kuden" of shu-ha-ri, rely solely on the methodology of a kata's outer form to instill in their students the essence of their art?


--Alex

[Mekugi]

That's a damned good question! I don't have ANY real answers....only opinions and everyone has one of those.....how are you dealing with it in your chosen craft? Do you feel that it's locking you into shu? Can you see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel there, or perhaps a path that is a little overgrown but clear-able? Personally, I believe that for a lot of Japanese crafts, they can be mimicked by a machine (poorly most of the time) and left unchecked, manufacturing would eventually kill off a lot of arts. That being said, becoming a national treasure in arts in Japan is an extremely valuable thing IMHO. Most young people scoff at the idea as they rub hair gel into their spikey black hair, but really the culture of Japan is tied to the crafts and customs; that is to say the arts are living, breathing culture! Otherwise, it's all museums....

BTW is that your Odachi or are you just glad to see me!

[Vagabond]

"I struggled a bit, trying to think of a Western-sourced proverb, phrase or idiom that defines this process in the same way as Shu Ha Ri. Has anyone got something that does the job? I may be just too dense to think of an obvious parallel."

My Guess would be I See, I Do, I Am. It works for me I see Karate, I do Karate, then I become Karate *Insert Jedi/Rocky Music Combo*

" Personally, I believe that for a lot of Japanese crafts, they can be mimicked by a machine (poorly most of the time) and left unchecked, manufacturing would eventually kill off a lot of arts."

I jsut watched a video on Youtube of traditional Bogu and Shinai crafting. It was beautiful, but I am sure when I buy it, it is made by a machine.

[AlexJK]

With my specific craft I am dealing with it quite well. I found an incredible Sensei who is patient and understanding, who knows when to push and when to hold back. For now, I'm a child on a kiddie leash trying to run off but being, rightfully so, held back. All the while little bits of wisdom being passed my way. There is certainly a light at the end of the tunnel, yet it's ripe with danger, overgrown with weeds, and the light is a mere dot in the distance. Step by step, neh?

To be honest, not all of Japan's arts are doomed to be stuck in "shu". Nowhere near it. It's just that the abundance of and rate at which these arts and crafts are sinking into the realm of strict, overly codified, interpretive dances is palpable. Tea ceremony, even in some places in Kyoto, has become so contrived and serious that being a guest feels like being at someone's wake. Where a single mistake by a guest invites wicked glances and condescending remarks. Instead of a humbling appreciation of the simplicities and wonder of the natural, you instead are subjected to a live performance of an instruction manual. With flower arranging these days you get many ostentatious abhorrations that reflect nothing of trying to represent true nature but instead have become the same gimmicky cosmetic as hanging hello kitty or doraemon from a cell phone. Calligraphy, architecture, wood turning, martial arts. Many of these arts and crafts are being carried on by true masters proficient in the subtleties of their art. However, there are many more who, with such a shallow understanding, appreciation, and even a true interest in their art, perpetuate instead the strict outer forms as the most sacred; Locking these strict forms inside a box for museum patrons to see. Like trying to throw a pot around water. Many of these patrons, thinking they have seen the "true way", leave and further perpetuate this misconception to the point at which, seeing the natural methods of someone truly proficient, scoff at that which isn't rigid and set thinking that they have seen the perfunctory approach of a novice. Many of these arts are still alive, vibrant, and magnificent to behold. Yet many treat them as if they were dead relics in which, lest they be ravaged by time, need to be stored and locked up exactly as is so as not to degrade. How can students have a ghost of a chance at progressing naturally when they are only exposed to one dimension of their art? Where it is passed on as an artifact to be cherished and stored, versus a multi-dimensional living entity that should be practiced, loved, and shared.

--Alex

PS Russ, it's an odachi.....I swear