Are Bujinkan members really fat?

[Don Roley]

I have been reading a few threads on other boards talking about how most Bujinkan practitioners are fat. It seems that the Bujinkan has a reputation for attracting fat people.

Really?

I know some fat people in the Bujinkan, but looking around America I see a far higher percentage in the general population. Even looking at some martial artists from other arts, I see about the same percentage as in the Bujinkan.

Of the people I know in the Bujinkan in America, they all seem pretty normal sized. One of my students complains about his weight, but he is nowhere near the size that I consider to be chubby. The rest of my students and the people I work with from places like Denver, Fort Collins, etc all seem about normal weight.

So what do others think? Many of usl put on some weight when we get older. So older teachers might have a bit wider belt than they used to have. But aside from that, what causes people to think that there are so many fat people in the Bujinkan?

[Mark Jordan]

Not really. Although, I do notice that here in the States there are many Bujinkan practitioners who are overweight. That's maybe because Bujinkan trains the students in a manner appropriate for their body and there is no requirement or right body type for training. Whatever weight or height you have the method of training is "customized" in a way that is effective and beneficial to you.

[Tony Dismukes]

It's been quite a while since I trained in the Bujinkan. Based on what I saw back in the day, practitioners were not any more overweight, on average, than the typical member of the public, or even the average martial artist.

On the other hand, I will say that the average level of physical conditioning among my training partners in the Bujinkan was significantly lower than what I've encountered in muay thai, jujutsu, and judo.

[ScholarsInk]

From what I've seen, it's not so much that Bujinkan members are fatter on average than the overall (Western) population, but that they are so compared to other groups of martial artists. I think this (not fat in and of itself, but fitness in general) is one of the major things that gives us a bad reputation. The average judoka or BJJist is probably in much better shape than the average Bujinkan taijutsuka - so it arguably gives the illusion of weakness of Bujinkan technique when the actual issue at hand is the Bujinkaner's fitness.

[Mekugi]

There may be one particular person that has help spread this perception. Overall, I think it is a falsehood. I wonder what people think of American Kempo practitioners?

[Don Roley]

From what I've seen, it's not so much that Bujinkan members are fatter on average than the overall (Western) population, but that they are so compared to other groups of martial artists. I think this (not fat in and of itself, but fitness in general) is one of the major things that gives us a bad reputation. The average judoka or BJJist is probably in much better shape than the average Bujinkan taijutsuka - so it arguably gives the illusion of weakness of Bujinkan technique when the actual issue at hand is the Bujinkaner's fitness.

I am thinking about this along with what Tony wrote about Muay Thai, etc.

In these arts, there is a significant percentage that are in it for competition. That makes them athletes. Athletes and folks that go in for competition work out to get any edge they can. Could that be the reason?

Russ can confirm this if I am right, but it is my impression of non- sport jujutsu schools that the typical student does not lift weights or work out anymore than the general population. There are a few, but most guys I can think of whom I trained with just look like everyone else around them.

Could that be a clue?

[Mekugi]

Yeah Now that I think about it...that's right! Just average Yoshi ....

[Tony Dismukes]

In these arts, there is a significant percentage that are in it for competition. That makes them athletes. Athletes and folks that go in for competition work out to get any edge they can. Could that be the reason?

That makes sense to me. In my Bujinkan days, there was a huge emphasis placed on technique, to the point of denigrating physical strength. In my muay thai, BJJ, & judo experience there was the recognition that your opponent might know alll the same technique you do and physical conditioning could be the factor that decides victory. Furthermore, painful experience taught me (and I'm sure, others) that superiority in pure technique does not necessarily trump every thing else. If you imagine a 10-point scale for purposes of conceptualization, I had a number of matches where I (technique=4, strength=2, endurance=3) would get crushed by a sparring partner with (technique=2, strength=6, endurance=5). Being twice as skilled doesn't always win the day against an opponent who is three times as strong and fit.

Fortunately, the practice of grappling with big guys who are doing their best to tie you in knots does seem to improve both technique and conditioning.

My experience in training with people in other martial arts (kung fu, kempo, etc) seems to show that their conditioning can range anywhere from Bujinkan equivalent on one end to BJJ and boxing equivalent on the other end, depending on the art and the school. Of course, even the least physically demanding martial art is still better exercise than sitting at a desk all day, as I'm doing now.

[ScholarsInk]

I am thinking about this along with what Tony wrote about Muay Thai, etc.

In these arts, there is a significant percentage that are in it for competition. That makes them athletes. Athletes and folks that go in for competition work out to get any edge they can. Could that be the reason?

Russ can confirm this if I am right, but it is my impression of non- sport jujutsu schools that the typical student does not lift weights or work out anymore than the general population. There are a few, but most guys I can think of whom I trained with just look like everyone else around them.

Could that be a clue?

I think that's definitely a big part of it. As people who have to deal with competitors regularly, being in shape can often be the key to victory.

On the other hand, looking at the history of Judo in particular, it's clear that Kano-sensei meant for it to be a method of physical education (something that it does very well). Judo does not really clash severely with most arts' movement, so it can be taken alongside for fitness reasons (indeed that is something I plan to do very soon) - Kano believed that judoka should study some form of kobudo along with judo, so I think the issue of non-competitive budoka not necessarily being in the best shape is not a new one.

That being said, I don't know how many instructors (especially among us gaijin) today are in as good shape as Soke and the original shihan back in the day (judging by the video clips that have survived). I think a lot of people who don't put in time training with the shihan don't understand that a person cannot jump straight to the level of sensei and the shihan who can move effortlessly - there's a lot of hard work and difficult training that comes before it.

[bostonshinobi]

The Bujinkan? Nah! But i have seen other organizations that the shihan cant even see their tabi.

[tgace334]

The Arnis world has ya'll beat IMO.

[Chokushin]

Nah...they aren't Fat....just Phat ..with a PH LOL ..sorry couldn't resist injecting some humor

[Goemon]

I have also encountered this stereotype, and I think it is based only partly on reality. I trained with some people for awhile that fit this stereotype. The people I train with now do not.
I do think that someone claiming to teach martial arts should try to be a good example of their art. For example, Hatsumi-sensei is over 80, but is probably (no, definitely!) in better shape than the average american. This tells a new student like me that this art is good for the body, even when you reach old age. If he were a big fat guy with a heart condition, he would not be as good an example of the art.
At the first school I went to, the teacher was overweight and had man breasts, and one of his black belts was probably not able to see his own toes. Of course, not everyone at this place fit the stereotype, but still...
Despite all this, I would like to point out that at my old Karate school there was a big fat woman who couldnt kick above knee level. Somehow she has a sensei rank at that school. Politics played a major role in this. Point being, every art has a few fatties who stick around long enough to get a rank. I think any serious martial art teacher should encourage his or her students to be in good shape, because regardless of any philosophy, you're supposed to be learning how to fight, and you cannot fight at your best if your body isn't healthy. Unless someone has a real physical problem that makes them unable to change, I think there is no excuse for such obesity in the martial arts at higher levels. Call me whatever you want, but I think a rank should actually MEAN something, instead of just being a measure of how long you've been there. If someone who weighs 300 pounds and has arms like linguini and can't even touch their own toes holds a black belt, he/she is making a mockery of those who actually worked hard and exercised self-discipline to get that same rank.
Part of the problem is that some dojos dont care if you turn out to be a good martial artist or not, as long as you keep showing up and paying tuition fees.

[Andrew Brunner]

I dunno, I am 5'8" and weigh 230lbs, and I am the largest person in my Hapkido class, but I am also the strongest, not that its matters in HKD. My teacher compares me to a small Sumo, saying that though I have extra weight I have much muscle under it, like a Sumo. So IMHO its not just whether you are fat as much as what type of fat. There are some overweight guys how can still be great at the art they are involved in. I mean to say I guess, is the person fat? Or are they just big?

Andrew Brunner