Kendo Vs. Sojutsu

[AlexJK]

Thank you both very much. I had just returned from the dojo and needless to say I was a little overly stimulated. It's always like that. Body is exhausted, mind is wide awake.

I don't watch much Chinese cinema anymore but I used to be a huge Jet Li fan. Besides a short stint doing Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu I have no real experience with Chinese martial arts. What I can tell you is that the training methods, the kata, and the weapon itself are all very different. First of all, there isn't a whole lot of jumping going on in our training. I think it would be very difficult do to with any real benefit while wearing armor. Also, the whippiness of the weapon seems a bit out of place when used against armored opponents. "Hits" don't count as much. Certainly there are opportunities to use the Japanese spear as a cutting weapon but mostly it's about the thrust. Excellent against unarmored opponents I would think but I wonder how much that Chinese spear would flex during a powerful strike to an armored opponent. Maybe traditionally they used one kind of wood for military campaigns and that's a training weapon? Chock that up to my lack of knowledge in Chinese martial systems.

The kata are very different. Almost all of the training is done paired with a partner. There are things one works on by themself as well but mostly you learn by training with someone. From my limited understanding most of the Chinese weapons forms are single person. If I am way off on that then please let me know. In terms of the spears themselves the length of the Chinese one is certainly shorter then the kudayari at the top of the thread but the Japanese had all sizes of spears in both pole length as well as the spear head size and shape. I forget what Chinese spears were made from. Is it "wax wood"? I've heard it referred to as that but I'm not sure if that's a translation or if that's just what we call it. In my experience, mounted Japanese spears had their hafts made of kashi (Japanese Oak). Kashi at these lengths has a good amount of flexibility but not the same amount as the one in the video. It also has a good deal of strength and can stand up to some incredible abuse before saying "goodnight and good luck". However, although I've never tested the durability of the "wax wood" I have a feeling the kashi can take a bit more abuse. It is heavier as well but it has a wonderful feel in the hands. If someone from the Chinese martial arts forum could chime in here, I believe that Chinese spears are what the Japanese refer to as fukuro yari. Meaning that, as opposed to a spear with a nakago(tang) that slides into to the pole itself and is locked by a mekugi and fittings, the spear head itself has a hollow portion to it that the pole can get wedged into. Now it's a trade-off with both of these. The pole of the Chinese spear can get cut near the spear head due to its lack of a tang but it's much lighter because of it. Also, if the spear head gets stuck in someone's body/shield/weapon, the force used to pull the spear head out can actually cause it to "pop" off the pole. That being said, later on, if one is still alive, they can go and get a new pole from the woods or something, do a little wittling, pop the pole into the spear head and wha-la! A new spear. Or you can just sharpen a bamboo pole and call it a day. Now with the Japanese non-fukuroyari (I specify because the Japanese used fukuro yari to some extent) the haft close to the actual spear head is difficult to cut clean off due to the metal collars as well as due to the nakago. The spear head is unlikely to pop off unless you have a severely beaten up/poorly made spear mountings. However, if the spear mountings do become unuseable on the battlefield the user can't just go and get a new pole and stuff it in there. He needs to find craftsman who can do the work for him. Or he can just sharpen a bamboo pole and call it a day.

[Tripitaka of AA]

There's obviously a lot more to this subject ... comparison between European warfare and oriental, class/social status of particular weapons, strategic use of individual weapons (group/individual, range, terrain, etc.).

You chaps that have already looked around the topic, did you find any "must be read" books? I know you guys walk the walk.. and talk the talk... but all I've ever done is read the thread

[Erik]

There was recently a Jet Li movie set in or near Shanghai in the 1920s where he takes on four foreigners.

One was a prussian with a spear. Very cool fight scene. Makes me wonder about European spear-work.

The anti-hero (who was indeed a hero) was a Japanese karate (ish) guy.

Anyone know this movie? It is meant to be Jet Li's last movie, I think.

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks for some really informative posts, Alex!

[Mekugi]

The person who uploaded that video has now blocked me from making comments or responding to it because I pointed out the fact the Kendoka was getting laid to waste. Talk about people living in their own little world! I checked out user's page http://www.youtube.com/user/depabilaba#p/u Surprise, surprise, surprise Goober! This guy is is into Chanbarra (chan barra barra chan!)

[drivica]

Since I know Chanbara people in Europe, I must "defend" them - this is someone from French chanbara, which is part of their Kendo federation, and Jean Girot sensei who runs French chanbara is also Rokudan Kendo. I know him in person, very honest man, real gentleman and true budoka.

[Mekugi]

Since I know Chanbara people in Europe, I must "defend" them - this is someone from French chanbara, which is part of their Kendo federation, and Jean Girot sensei who runs French chanbara is also Rokudan Kendo. I know him in person, very honest man, real gentleman and true budoka.

...and this someone is completely blind.

[ben]

Russ, pull your head in mate. You're laying on the anti-kendo diatribe a bit thick in this and other threads. It's getting tiresome. b

[Mekugi]

Russ, pull your head in mate. You're laying on the anti-kendo diatribe a bit thick in this and other threads. It's getting tiresome. b

First and foremost:

If you don't like what I have to say, then don't read it, brother-man. You have the decision to ignore me and you chose to engage me so if you have something to add that's fine, but don't tell me that I don't have a right to my opinion or a way to express it (because you're bored/you find it tiresome?) You'll find one of my favorite fingers responding to that.

Anyway, what other threads of mine have "anti-kendo" in them, pray tell? Where did I ever say that I am "anti-kendo"? You won't find it. **It's certainly not here** either.

If someone wants to do Kendo, that is fine. It's a good sport and a fun game to play. Don't expect me to bow down to a 7th dan that doesn't know when to stop, what is polite, what is for show and what is for his own hubris.

To be clear: I'm not anti-kendo. I'm anti "Jedi-wannabe -kendo-is-all-kenjutsu-distilled-into-kendo claptrap", which is all too common. If you want to change that to a Japanese point of view, make that "Samurai-wannabe -kendo-is-all-kenjutsu-distilled-into-kendo claptrap" because it's certainly more prominent an activity over here, and I am around it all the time.

It boils down to people, man, not the sport (or in other cases, the art). There's plenty of these types in Koryu Bujutsu and other Japanese Budo as well and I do talk about that all the time. You just are focusing on this because it hits home, perhaps?