Glocks and other pistols

[Erik]

Sensible advice, Cliff. Several hundred dollars is a lot (for me) to just try out and I don't have the access to experienced trainers that I'd like (e.g. in an academy). Consequently, I'm asking a lot of questions and trying to become aware of the right questions to ask before putting down the money.

I figure I'll practice enough to get to know the weapon and if I can use it reliably.

As for consistently accurately, I guess that's the lifelong challenge of it.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I read a lot of threads that I don't understand. This stuff is so far out of my zone that I've managed to keep quiet until now. I'm curious about where these tools/toys/lifesavers/LethalForcePersuaders fit into people's lives on a financial level.

How much do these things cost?

Less than a car, less than a bike... more than a PC? More than a washing machine?

If you were, for example, a newly married young man working and saving to build a future for your family, which item would you buy first (out of the suggestions above)?

Sorry if that's too much of a detour. In context of the thread, how much are the Glock's compared with the other makes described? How much do you need for ammunition? How much does it cost to repair something like that?

As you can see, I am not a Gun owner. Please forgive my naiivety

[Erik]

The sidearms I've seen at the stores around here range from $500 - $900. There are no "saturday night specials" around here - just quality weapons. Glocks and Heckler & Koch are on the pricier side, as I recall.

As for maintenance, I hoped to do that myself but there are real skills to being an armorer that can't be faked, so that's a good question, David.

You're British - the country of improvised vicious weapons, like glassing people! Dear God!

[Cliff Hargrave]

Sensible advice, Cliff. Several hundred dollars is a lot (for me) to just try out and I don't have the access to experienced trainers that I'd like (e.g. in an academy). Consequently, I'm asking a lot of questions and trying to become aware of the right questions to ask before putting down the money.

I figure I'll practice enough to get to know the weapon and if I can use it reliably.

As for consistently accurately, I guess that's the lifelong challenge of it.

Check here and see if any of the classes are near you http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

Odd group, but they can dang sure teach you how to run a Glock or something similar. A friend of mine is a staff instructor for them in this area.

Also try here: http://www.frontsight.com/

If you want to take a vacation for training try Arizona. Lots of quality places there. This one is run by someone I know personally http://firebaseacademy.com

If you want to have some fun, search for an IDPA club around you.

[Erik]

Oooooh, very cool, Cliff!

[Jonathan Randall]

Sensible advice, Cliff. Several hundred dollars is a lot (for me) to just try out and I don't have the access to experienced trainers that I'd like (e.g. in an academy). Consequently, I'm asking a lot of questions and trying to become aware of the right questions to ask before putting down the money.

I figure I'll practice enough to get to know the weapon and if I can use it reliably.

As for consistently accurately, I guess that's the lifelong challenge of it.

I'm certainly one of the least qualified here on this topic, but, still, have you considered a revolver? Good, dependable ones can be had for substantially less than a pistol of the type mentioned here. Only reason I add this is that funds seem to be difficult right now - I know the IT industry is hurting. Just a thought.

[Jonathan Randall]

Rather like Ruger's P89/90 guns.

I see Gun Brokers has a couple listed new under $350.00. But, alas, for Erik, the magazines aren't CA legal.

Or, you could just buy a black powder cap and ball revolver. Fire (hope it doesn't chain fire, lol) and poof - disappear like a Ninja in the smoke. How are your rolls?

Are you at all familiar with the Bersa .380's? They are supposed to be reliable and are relatively inexpensive. Is .380 too small for you to recommend? I'm not really in the market myself, just curious. Thanks.

[Michael J. Bray]

The "Ghost" trigger connector really improves the springy feel of the facctory trigger in the Glock. It is an inespensive, drop in modification.

[Erik]

Revolvers are a perfectly valid idea. I just don't know anything about them so I have no point of reference.

Size of round must be such that it works against burglars (and worse) and doesn't go through the soft, wooden anti-earthquake walls in our building and hit a neighbor.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Revolvers are a perfectly valid idea. I just don't know anything about them so I have no point of reference.

Size of round must be such that it works against burglars (and worse) and doesn't go through the soft, wooden anti-earthquake walls in our building and hit a neighbor.

Over penetration is really a non valid scare. First, the design of the bullet has much more to do with how much it penetrates, than does caliber. Full metal jacket .380s will go through a whole more than some hollow point .357 magnums. Type of projectile, design, quality, size of frontal area, speed (which changes with barrel lengths), angle of impact, and construction materials make more difference. Heck a .22 will probably penetrate the most simply because it's small, fast, and solid.

Also, a round that won't go through a 2x4 probably wont do much to a person either.

So don't miss.....

[Michael J. Bray]

i have carried several revolvers as duty weapons during the early part of my career as a Police Oficer. I NEVER felt inadiquately armed. We didn't need the State mandated malfunction drills either with the revolvers. Some folks think a revolver is a slow, outdated tool. I disagree. Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

[Jonathan Randall]

Thanks Michael and Cliff for the great info!

I've heard that about hollow points, but I didn't know that about calibers. That is good info to have should I ever purchase a handgun for home defence as I live in an apartment.

What do you folks thing about smaller guns being harder to be disarmed from at close quarters (small apartment)? I would think for the non-pro like myself, I would need to be very careful about something large enough for them to grab more easily. The last thing I want to get into is a wrestling match over my own pistol. Certainly, I would take training in weapons retention before purchasing any, though.

Again, thanks for the expert advice all.

[Chokushin]

As far as being concerned about being disarmed goes ..if you have a firearm that is already in play ( not holstered ) then you have made an error in tactics. You need to maintain reactionary distance to prevent situations where you will get involved in said wrestling match. If the suspect doesn't comply with verbal direction and knows you are armed then you will have to engage him or risk having your weapon turned against you. If he is armed and not complying with verbal direction ..seek cover and engage him. The possible scenarios are endless but the bottom line is ..maintain a reactionary gap ...preferably greater than the supposed magic 21ft. If you cant try and keep something between you and the subject to prevent being rushed. Seek cover or concealment ..and know the difference between the two and when you feel you have no other choice but to engage ..do so without hesitation.

As for having a smaller firearm...I can see it as far as using a handgun instead of a long gun in close quarters such as an apartment. However when you get in to small sub compact pistols they becoming more difficult to shoot ..especially under stress and especially for newer shooters. This is due to shorter sight radius..shorter barrel and often but not always poor triggers and more felt recoil due to lighter weight. On top of which smaller handguns generally use smaller calibers that have less lethality than full or mid size handguns. I wouldn't go getting Dirty Harry's 6 or 8" S&W M-29 .44mag. A standard size pistol or revolver between 4-5" barrel length would be ideal for good shooting characteristics but not offer an overly large target for a gun grab. They will also be chambered in calibers that will offer decent stopping power compared to a smaller subcompact type pistol.

However it is more tactics than firearm selection that will prevent having your own pistol turned against you.

Now is it just me or are we getting away from the original spirit of this thread ...if so Mods please feel free to turn this into a new thread.

Regardless ..that is my input on the purposed question

Cheers

[David Craik]

Wow, a lot of activity here.

Less than a car, less than a bike... more than a PC? More than a washing machine?

If you were, for example, a newly married young man working and saving to build a future for your family, which item would you buy first (out of the suggestions above)?

Prices are readily available on the internet. You can buy a good quality revolver for the price of a top-of-the-line cricket bat or a set of skis. I would buy a car and washing machine before I bought a handgun. It isn't like people are grinding clothes on a washboard at a stream and walking 15 miles to work so that they can buy a gun.

I am a big fan of revolvers. I've been shooting since I was 12 and still if I could have only one handgun it would be my .357. Young'uns with little or no handgun experience used to ask me all the time what I would suggest as a first gun and were to a man disappointed when I said a revolver. And usually they ignored me and bought a semi-auto with ambi magazine release, bevelled magazine well, huge beavertails, tuned trigger, etc. C'est la vie. Revolvers just ain't cool or "sexy" I guess.

As to disarming, when you are clearing the house alone you keep the weapon close to your body with your free hand partially extended. The most important thing is to know your house. Obviously you aren't going to stroll into a blind corner with your pistol extended in an isoceles stance. If you are worried about snatches you can reshape and sharpen your front sight blade. I've seen some that would open a hand right up.

Most overpenetration issues occur when you miss. If you live in an apartment or are toting a .44 Magnum I'd recommend Glasers or Magsafe. I live in a brick house so this isn't an issue, but there was a time when the wife and I lived in a trailer and I used .38 Glasers in my .357. Problem solved. I would caution against getting an anemic caliber due to overpenetration concerns. Even a 125 grn SJHP is unlikely to go through multiple walls and strike an innocent, even though it has a 98% (IIRC) one-shot-stop record.

Get a handgun which is the best quality you can afford in a decent caliber, and practice often. That's really all you need to do.

[Jonathan Randall]

Prices are readily available on the internet. You can buy a good quality revolver for the price of a top-of-the-line cricket bat or a set of skis.

I am a big fan of revolvers. I've been shooting since I was 12 and still if I could have only one handgun it would be my .357. Young'uns with little or no handgun experience used to ask me all the time what I would suggest as a first gun and were to a man disappointed when I said a revolver. And usually they ignored me and bought a semi-auto with ambi magazine release, bevelled magazine well, huge beavertails, tuned trigger, etc. C'est la vie. Revolvers just ain't cool or "sexy" I guess.

Well, I for one am going to take your advice and purchase a revolver. Since it is not for home defence, I am looking into the .22 you mentioned in another thread.

Wow, a lot of activity here.



Prices are readily available on the internet. You can buy a good quality revolver for the price of a top-of-the-line cricket bat or a set of skis.

I am a big fan of revolvers. I've been shooting since I was 12 and still if I could have only one handgun it would be my .357. Young'uns with little or no handgun experience used to ask me all the time what I would suggest as a first gun and were to a man disappointed when I said a revolver. And usually they ignored me and bought a semi-auto with ambi magazine release, bevelled magazine well, huge beavertails, tuned trigger, etc. C'est la vie. Revolvers just ain't cool or "sexy" I guess.

As to disarming, when you are clearing the house alone you keep the weapon close to your body with your free hand partially extended. The most important thing is to know your house. Obviously you aren't going to stroll into a blind corner with your pistol extended in an isoceles stance. If you are worried about snatches you can reshape and sharpen your front sight blade. I've seen some that would open a hand right up.

This is what I thought. It's good to see that my insticts are more in line with what you folks know than I would have thought. Parts of my apartment - hall, entranceway, etc. - are very, very constricted and that is where my concern lay. However; I do not open up after dark for people I don't know and I trust more in my ability to remain aware and sensible assault prevention wise, than I do in either my martial art's ability or any armed status.

Wow, a lot of activity here.

Most overpenetration issues occur when you miss. If you live in an apartment or are toting a .44 Magnum I'd recommend Glasers or Magsafe. I live in a brick house so this isn't an issue, but there was a time when the wife and I lived in a trailer and I used .38 Glasers in my .357. Problem solved. I would caution against getting an anemic caliber due to overpenetration concerns. Even a 125 grn SJHP is unlikely to go through multiple walls and strike an innocent, even though it has a 98% (IIRC) one-shot-stop record.

Get a handgun which is the best quality you can afford in a decent caliber, and practice often. That's really all you need to do.

Great to have activity on this forum.

Yes, I see what you mean and I am thankful for your willingness to share your knowledge.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thanks for that David. I realise I could have looked up some prices, but I'm coming at it from such a novice angle, I thought I'd try for a more personal answer than one based on the maths. Thanks for putting me straight.

[David Craik]

Thank you gentlemen. I'm certainly no firearms expert, so take it for what it's worth. Likely what you paid for it. I'm glad you are considering a revolver Mr. Randall. It would be nice to have a few more in the fold these days.

[Erik]

So says the marine:

I'm certainly no firearms expert...

[TonyU]

Wow, a lot of activity here.



Prices are readily available on the internet. You can buy a good quality revolver for the price of a top-of-the-line cricket bat or a set of skis. I would buy a car and washing machine before I bought a handgun. It isn't like people are grinding clothes on a washboard at a stream and walking 15 miles to work so that they can buy a gun.

I am a big fan of revolvers. I've been shooting since I was 12 and still if I could have only one handgun it would be my .357. Young'uns with little or no handgun experience used to ask me all the time what I would suggest as a first gun and were to a man disappointed when I said a revolver. And usually they ignored me and bought a semi-auto with ambi magazine release, bevelled magazine well, huge beavertails, tuned trigger, etc. C'est la vie. Revolvers just ain't cool or "sexy" I guess.

I'm a big fan as well, although I grew up in a semi auto generation. I've seen a resurgence in revolver popularity these past 15 years or so since I've been a firearms instructor. My pet peeve is people that go from semi to revolver want to shoot , reload and treat the gun like a semi. Then, when I try to correct them they look at me like I got two heads.

As to disarming, when you are clearing the house alone you keep the weapon close to your body with your free hand partially extended.

I wouldn't recommend it. Good way to shoot your own hand during a flinch response. If you happen to come upon someone and you grab or squeeze with your extended hand sympathetic reaction may cause you to squeeze the trigger.

The most important thing is to know your house.

Absolutely. People laugh at me even within my own profession because I clear my house at least once a month. Like any skills, tactics are degradable and will degrade in time if you don't practice.

Obviously you aren't going to stroll into a blind corner with your pistol extended in an isoceles stance. If you are worried about snatches you can reshape and sharpen your front sight blade. I've seen some that would open a hand right up.

Actually you can in a modified version of this. With the both hands and the weapon tucked into your sternum, pistol parallel to the ground. If you get surprised you can get good accurate shots from there within room distances, with practice of course. On top of that there are some weapon retention tactics one can do although I'm not going to discuss them here. Too long and complicated to write plus, I don't feel comfortable immortalizing them on a forum.

Most overpenetration issues occur when you miss. If you live in an apartment or are toting a .44 Magnum I'd recommend Glasers or Magsafe. I live in a brick house so this isn't an issue, but there was a time when the wife and I lived in a trailer and I used .38 Glasers in my .357. Problem solved. I would caution against getting an anemic caliber due to overpenetration concerns. Even a 125 grn SJHP is unlikely to go through multiple walls and strike an innocent, even though it has a 98% (IIRC) one-shot-stop record.

Here's another pet peeve of mine. Why I believe most people miss. Mostly everyone goes to a range, stand in front of a paper target, shoot, then go home. They don't practice realistically. I equate that to if you're going to fight someone are you going to stand toe to toe, without moving, and slug it out? Of course not. If you engage a suspect in a room, or house, you're going to be moving. So you need to practice this at the range. You need to practice shooting moving forward, backwards, laterally, and angles.

Get a handgun which is the best quality you can afford in a decent caliber, and practice often. That's really all you need to do.

Again, absolutely!

[TonyU]

I'm certainly no firearms expert, so take it for what it's worth.

Neither am I, although for some reason these postings suck me in.