11-year-old earns multiple black belts, teaches peers martial arts

**Cliff Hargrave** · 04-25-2011, 18:37

http://www.wtkr.com/news/dp-fea-kara...,2449849.story

**Mekugi** · 04-25-2011, 19:36

Erm....I don't know what to say to this. One hand...she's good, the other hand...she's young. How to be nice in this?

**rainesr** · 04-25-2011, 21:06

I think one BB is too much for most 11 year old children but I have no good solution for a child who has practiced for several years either.

At a school I attended they had Junior BB ranks but it was discouraging to reach the adult class and be ranked at 1st Dan again and spend extra time there playing catch up.

**Webmaster** · 04-25-2011, 21:50

Shodan in four arts? No, one maybe two, but not four. Shorin Ryu and Shotokan are similar enough in their kata that you could basically switch between the two easily, but Goju Ryu? Big difference, then there is the Ryukyu Kobudo, which has related skills, but is itself it's own martial art. She may be okay, but four arts is a bit much.

**JWhiteSensei** · 04-26-2011, 15:35

I have to admit this is upsetting to me. Not to take anything away from Samantha, but 11 is simply to young for Shodan even in one style in my opinion. Our organization just began allowing 12 year olds to promote to first degree black belt a couple of years ago. Before that it was 16. I had some issues with the decision but what can you do.

To hold 4 black belt ranks at 11 in 4 different and traditional Japanese arts is a bit far fetched to me. Either The Karate Connection is a McDojo bent on making money (or it's owner is) or Samantha is a very VERY special young lady. As I said before, I'm not trying to take anything away from her. she has obviously worked hard for this honor. She probably has great skill. My question is: where is the maturity level?

In my dojo I will award children of that age a Shodan Ho or prohabitionary black belt. If she is 11 now and has 4 black belts, she must have started earning them at around 6 or 7. As Robert said, there is a BIG difference in Goju Ryu and the other two open hand styles. It would be difficult enough to earn a shodan in Shotokan or Shorin Ryu but add on Goju ryu AND a weapons art? I won't even let younger kids HANDLE a weapon, let alone get them to black belt level with them before they have reached a certain maturity level.

If I were a practitioner of any of the styles Samantha holds rank in I would be very skeptical and critical of her school and her instructors.

Now that all of that is said: congrats to the young lady. She must be doing something right. And if you should read this, Samantha, please understand that what you have accomplished is not just a title but has huge responsibilities. I hope you grow strong in karate-do.

**Mekugi** · 04-26-2011, 17:57

Black belt/ shodan either has too much emphasis or not enough. What does it really represent?

**JWhiteSensei** · 04-27-2011, 11:15

To some people it means a great deal. To some people it is more than an achievement, it is an honor. The standard answer: It is the end of one phase and the beginning of another where the learning really begins. My Shodan was an honor. It represented a lot of hard work and a lot of tradition. It let me know I had reached the peek of one mountain and could now see other mountains ahead of me. Yet it was something that was not simply given out because of how much time was out into it or because of how much money that was paid. It was a marker of maturity both in life and in my art.

**sean_stonehart** · 04-27-2011, 11:28

Just no...

**Mekugi** · 04-27-2011, 12:49

Well, the fact that a shodan means so many things to different schools doesn't help. If I were Japanese (which I am not) I would say it was a big deal to an outsider, those not knowing what it meant. Shodan, the first grade, is a pretty rudimentary grade all things considered; it means you are not Nyumon anymore so it has that going for it. By no means does it represent mastery (at least in my mind). Not that it isn't hard to achieve (perhaps the hardest) but there is way too much rank worship in some ways, IMHO. It's just a frichen belt! Skills tell a lot more in the long run while a rank can be both representative and misrepresentative.

**JWhiteSensei** · 04-27-2011, 13:08

Originally Posted by Mekugi

Well, the fact that a shodan means so many things to different schools doesn't help. If I were Japanese (which I am not) I would say it was a big deal to an outsider, those not knowing what it meant. Shodan, the first grade, is a pretty rudimentary grade all things considered; it means you are not Nyumon anymore so it has that going for it. By no means does it represent mastery (at least in my mind). Not that it isn't hard to achieve (perhaps the hardest) but there is way too much rank worship in some ways, IMHO. It's just a frichen belt! Skills tell a lot more in the long run while a rank can be both representative and misrepresentative.

I agree, Russ. I have no problems with that. I have those same opinions but I simply have a few more. You're right, it's not mastery. It is, though, the first step in that direction. I am old fashioned. I will not be a "master" until the day I draw my last breath and leave this plane of being. Why? Because to me, a master is someone who has learned absolutely everything there is to know about what they are mastering in. We should never stop learning. Thus I will not be a master until the day I die. Then I will have learned everything I can. But Shodan is the first step to a larger and deeper learning process and a doorway to deeper meanings of one's chosen art.

I recieved my Shodan as I recieved all of my previous ranks: with a sense of humility and honor. I have recieved all of my ranks since with the same attitude.

**Nyuck3x** · 04-29-2011, 18:14

I prefer these two kids. They have better technique, kime and form. More typical of a shodan from Japan. They only have one BB and are still students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xAq...e=channel_page

**Webmaster** · 04-29-2011, 20:43

Originally Posted by Nyuck3x

I prefer these two kids. They have better technique, kime and form. More typical of a shodan from Japan. They only have one BB and are still students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xAq...e=channel_page

Very impressive Ray, and thank you for the link! I'm not a junior black belt kinda guy, but I'd promote either of them to Shodan. Only criticism I have is that the boy (on the left) had his eyes behind his techniques regularly. Good waza with both, but kime was better with the girl, and I have a hard time getting past the boy throwing blind waza.

But that's just me....

**Cliff Hargrave** · 04-29-2011, 21:06

Originally Posted by Nyuck3x

I prefer these two kids. They have better technique, kime and form. More typical of a shodan from Japan. They only have one BB and are still students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xAq...e=channel_page

Proof that you CAN teach children karate properly. That is so far above the garbage I see in the TKD/Karate chain schools around here.

**Mekugi** · 04-29-2011, 23:12

That is awesome... (@ Ray)

I found this while on there.

http://youtu.be/yLovzICQKkM

Too cute.

'Member this :

http://youtu.be/ASAG2O_H3ic

**Jonathan Randall** · 04-30-2011, 00:58

Originally Posted by Nyuck3x

I prefer these two kids. They have better technique, kime and form. More typical of a shodan from Japan. They only have one BB and are still students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xAq...e=channel_page

Impressive performance, thanks.

**Nyuck3x** · 04-30-2011, 16:04

Originally Posted by Mekugi

That is awesome... (@ Ray)

I found this while on there.

http://youtu.be/yLovzICQKkM

Too cute.

'Member this :

http://youtu.be/ASAG2O_H3ic

I love the second one. He even does it in crocs!

**potentpoefie** · 05-10-2011, 01:55

Well, Ray those two students would give us some head scratching in our organisation. In our organisation you can only achieve Shodan at the age of 18. However the skill of those two would put us to the test.

That being said and taking into account what has been said above, a black belt is more than just a grade. It is a symbol of your commitment and a measure of skill. How many students stop after receiving a black belt? I'm sure a fair majority of them. However you've worked hard to achieve that grade and I think you dishonor it by giving it to kids that young. Now I'm not kid hater but for me a black belt is more than just knowing a syllabus. First and foremost Karate is a martial art. No good being the best master of the syllabus but a good old pimp hand open hand smack takes you out of the fight. For me there is an amount of combat effectiveness that comes with being a black belt. Now you have an 11 year old with 4 black belt or an 8 year old with one and for me their inability to defend themselves takes away from the prestige of other black belt students. I mean somebody slaps them around and then everybody thinks "well if that is black belt standard, it isn't so impressive at all".

Further more in our organisation it is about the person as well. We follow Kikugawa Sensei and you can't impress him with your karate techniques because I'm pretty sure he's better than we are. You make an impression of who you are as a person. Dedication to your training. Being humble etc. etc. At 11 you don't even know who you are yet.

So for me there is more to being a black belt than just knowing the syllabus. Somebody could learn the syllabus from instructional video's as well but does that make them Shodan's?

**Mekugi** · 05-10-2011, 03:03

Post #17 makes some really good points. However, I like to play Devil's advocate, so here 'goes:

Dan ranks are given in a lot of things in Japan...as I am sure everyone knows. Ikebana, Sado, Shodo, Go... the list goes on.

So, let's say I have a shodan in Shodo (calligraphy). Does that mean I can write the "great Japanese novel" or merely make letters look good....does that make sense?

Rank doesn't mean you are any good at fighting...or teaching...good at the martial art you are doing...or really anything else for that matter. I'm not saying it's not supposed to...but it's *only* worth something within the school IMHO. This is especially true in modern Japan and I would reckon it means a great deal more over seas when not associated with shiai.

**potentpoefie** · 05-10-2011, 04:38

Well seeing how I don't live in Japan I can't argue with you on that one.
I guess what I'm traying to say is when everybody is special than nobody is. :P

But I have to disagree about the rank thing. Rank is suppose just to donate a level of skill. Hence it is a ranking. Like we rank cheese, wine, hotels etc. etc. And because of those rankings you have an idea of what you are getting. Like in your example being a writer and being a calligrapher is totally two different things. When you are a calligrapher your task to make letters look nice. So when you have a dan grading in that there is a certain amount of skill expected of you.

I get that because of the different schools/organisations we have different standards and as such a Dan means different things for different schools. (Like you said). It would have been great if we had some (if only a general) standard of what a Shodan should be.

But don't get me wrong. Age in no way equates to the level of skill somebody might have. However it is unlikely that an 11 year would have sufficient power/strength to be effective in a real world attack. I really hope I'm wrong but my general impression I got from the clip didn't give me that impression.

Hahaha....just goes to show already what I consider a Shodan is different from what her school considers good enough. But in our organisation she would (and she would have to be super special) at best be made a junior shodan and only when she reaches 16 years of age. I guess we work on you are the rule not the exception. (Doesn't mean there are not exceptions to the rule but mostly not).

**Mekugi** · 05-10-2011, 05:00

Indeed. I agree...yet fall back into the "fake nemisis" mode (it makes the thread more interesting)...

I am going to go out on a limb here (over a nasty jagged cliff) and say:

"who says it (the rank) needs skill?"

(Yeck, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth...hold on I have a point.)

Many folks that have a shodan over here on planet Japan could not fight their way out of cornfield full of scarecrows. They are simply not built for it culturally. (I am going to get into trouble for saying this, I know). One could literally pick a school, go in and beat the living crap out of the teacher- who is higher ranked than they are. The same goes for any club...even the BJJ clubs over here; they just don't know how to fight. So, in that light rank means nothing.

Now that being said, I know of a highly ranked individual in the old school martial arts over here that was tough as nails. He could scrap 10x worth his salt. However, in the school he studies he's an absolute moron, he doesn't remember the kata and certainly does not/never had a grasp of the techniques behind them or where they came from. He and his students are obnoxious pith-helmets and have no right to have any rank, regardless of how much butt they can whoop. In terms of that school their rank is meaningless because they have no idea what they are doing or why.

Two scenarios- both having high ranks...so my point is where and how do we draw the line?

My answer is a cop-put: I don't have any!!