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Thread: Poomse/Hyung

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    Member rainesr's Avatar
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    Default Poomse/Hyung

    When I took TSD we used Hyung as the Korean term for forms. Many of the TKD practitioners I know use Poomse instead of Hyung.

    Are there any Korean speakers out there that can explain the difference between Hyung and Poomse. I'm looking for what makes these two distinct words, however subtle.


    ~Rob

    I scanned the Korean Arts forums and couldn't find this topic. Sorry if this has been asked.
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poomse

    I think the WTF adopted the term Poomse over Hyung to differentiate themselves form the original KTA, and later, ITF, forms.

    As far as I can tell, they are synonyms.

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    I found this but have no way of verifying it yet, this is more of what I am looking for.


    Xíng – Chinese | Kata – Japanese | Hyung – Korean

    In many martial arts there are solo routines that are performed called forms. Many use the word (), or model. The character is made up of three radicals: (), level shape, (), knife or cutting, and (), earth. These combine to mean, shape that cuts the ground. To interpret this, one might imagine a person drawing a plan or model of something on the ground. Many forms, however, create specific shapes on the ground as they are performed.

    品勢
    Pǐn shì – Chinese | ? – Japanese | Poom se – Korean

    In Korean martial arts, specifically Taekwondo, the modern term for forms is (品勢). It is composed of two characters () and (). The first character () contains three occurrences of the radical (), mouth. This is interpreted as a collection of objects or articles. The second character () is composed of two radicals (), mound of earth worked or cultivating, and (), strength. The combination is cultivating strength. Together the word means articles for cultivating strength.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Someone else suggested to me that these words are similar to form and pattern, you can have good form but do the wrong pattern or have poor form but complete the pattern. They are not certain of this, it is just what they heard.

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    In CMA's ... xing/ying is used to describe a thing or element of a thing, but not so much a form in this context or that I've been exposed to.

    We tend to use the words Lu/Lou for Road or Quan/Kuen for Fist... for example...
    Chenshi Xinjia Yi Lu ... Chen Style New Frame First Road .... or
    Siu Lam Ng Ying Kuen ... Shaolin 5 Animal Fist

    Or sometimes the it's just a name & any reference to form or set or whatever is left off & will never be used... Tang Lang Chut Dong ... Praying Mantis Exits Cave

    Road or Fist IMHO are the best examples of CMA usage. Road specifies what it is... it's a path, a way for a journey. You could have 1 or many. It depends & is also more commonly found in Northern CMAs. Fist is less specific but imparts a notion that you should "feel" a certain attribute of what's being taught.

    All of this is just my interpretation & experience by exposure. YMMV...
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    Other than Tan Tui all of the forms I know or have heard of at our school end in Kuen/Quan or Lu/Lou as well. I haven't seen Xing used like that either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainesr View Post
    Other than Tan Tui all of the forms I know or have heard of at our school end in Kuen/Quan or Lu/Lou as well. I haven't seen Xing used like that either.
    Eh... it's not uncommon, but here's a question for you...which tam toy do you do? 10, 12 or 14 road? There's the name of it..

    shi lu tan tui / sup lou tam toy
    shi er lu tan tui / sup yi lou tam toy
    shi si lu tan tui / sup sei lou tam toy

    Besides... tam toy used to be a complete style by itself until it was distilled down to a basic skills drill & set.
    Last edited by sean_stonehart; 07-06-2011 at 12:57. Reason: oops
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    The first time I took Kung Fu we did a 10 road, at my current school there seems to be a 12 road. Some of the students have suggested ours is 24 roads but nobody admits to knowing more than 12, so 12 it is.

    I have not learned it here yet. From what I have seen the biggest difference in the two tan tui are the kicks(10 road was high, 12 road has lower) and the body mechanics at my current school are far more sophisticated.


    ~Rob
    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainesr View Post
    The first time I took Kung Fu we did a 10 road, at my current school there seems to be a 12 road. Some of the students have suggested ours is 24 roads but nobody admits to knowing more than 12, so 12 it is.

    I have not learned it here yet. From what I have seen the biggest difference in the two tan tui are the kicks(10 road was high, 12 road has lower) and the body mechanics at my current school are far more sophisticated.


    ~Rob
    Tam Toy at a Bak Hok school? Odd... oh well...

    Yeah there is a 24 road, but it's rare even in China. 10 is the pure Muslim original Tam Toy, 12 is the Ching Woo/Shaolin version.
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    I too have always wondered about the difference between the terms hyung and poomsae. I think, effectively for my purposes, it's as simple as accepting the fact that taekwondo forms used to be called hyungs and are now called poomsae. But, I really thought that other people think hyungs are in some way superior to poomsae. (You know how martial arts people tend to think "the old way is the best" way sometimes?)

    I would have expected to hear opinions like that on this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmtkd View Post
    I too have always wondered about the difference between the terms hyung and poomsae. I think, effectively for my purposes, it's as simple as accepting the fact that taekwondo forms used to be called hyungs and are now called poomsae. But, I really thought that other people think hyungs are in some way superior to poomsae. (You know how martial arts people tend to think "the old way is the best" way sometimes?)

    I would have expected to hear opinions like that on this thread.
    "Way back when" when I started MA's with TKD, we did the pyung-ahn (pinan) forms. Funny thing is... I still remember them. Oh they're rusty as all get out, but I still got'em.

    The thing that gets me is if TKD supposed to be a "kick-centric" art, which I hope it is focused as such given the dismal hands I've seen used, there's not a lot of kicking in any of the forms. Then when I do see kicking, I think "what were THEY thinking".

    A form is a book. It's a string of words put together in such a fashion as to convey knowledge & applicable techniques in a logical fashion, which when broken down to core components are able to stand up on individual merit. Sometimes new books are just clutter & noise, sometimes they're instant classics.

    My thought on MA forms... if they're not broke, don't fix them. Stay where the core of your system is & drill/practice ad infinitum. Your forms should contain the core of your system. You should be able to extract from that core, everything you need.

    You don't need new forms based on political in fighting or a sense of nationalism or... wait... nevermind.
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    There is a lot of historical Tae Kwon Do information at the Joong Do Kwan website.

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    By the way, the old spelling of poomse was changed in 1987. It should be spelt as poomsae now. There is no Hanja for the new spelling.

    References:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandma...ol-1667737@N25
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandma...le/5838249404/

    Poomsae basically is combined of poom (dynamic movement) and sae (static position). It's a really nice word IMHO that represents the um-yang of pattern practices, the movement between positions and stopping for that split second in position to show what you did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainesr View Post
    I found this but have no way of verifying it yet, this is more of what I am looking for.


    Xíng – Chinese | Kata – Japanese | Hyung – Korean

    In many martial arts there are solo routines that are performed called forms. Many use the word (), or model. The character is made up of three radicals: (), level shape, (), knife or cutting, and (), earth. These combine to mean, shape that cuts the ground. To interpret this, one might imagine a person drawing a plan or model of something on the ground. Many forms, however, create specific shapes on the ground as they are performed.

    品勢
    Pǐn shì – Chinese | ? – Japanese | Poom se – Korean

    In Korean martial arts, specifically Taekwondo, the modern term for forms is (品勢). It is composed of two characters () and (). The first character () contains three occurrences of the radical (), mouth. This is interpreted as a collection of objects or articles. The second character () is composed of two radicals (), mound of earth worked or cultivating, and (), strength. The combination is cultivating strength. Together the word means articles for cultivating strength.
    I have shown this to a Korean and Chinese speaking person and they said it was pretty accurate.


    ~Rob
    Last edited by rainesr; 08-15-2012 at 13:27.
    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - Albert Einstein

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