Throws in Karate Kata.

[TonyU]

Got it now and you're right not the best but it'll do.

To reiterate, just because it's in the kata it doesn't mean many know it's there. We established that, already. Add to that that even if they know it's there it doesn't mean the person is going to know how to perform the techniques correctly.
The kata alone isn't going to do that. You need a good sensei that knows how to that. That's something that was also lost through some schools and styles.

I've been fortunatel, my sensei, plus many Okinawans, broke it down for me. Still, I really picked up alot of the nuances and improved the throws exponantially when I trained with a judo sensei.

[Webmaster]

Got it now and you're right not the best but it'll do.

I'd much rather post a video of a hard-working young black belt who is trying to be true to their art than some of those "masters" posting videos of themselves. That's the gag factor I was referring to.

[Jonathan Randall]

I'd much rather post a video of a hard-working young black belt who is trying to be true to their art than some of those "masters" posting videos of themselves. That's the gag factor I was referring to.

It is a great clip. I love stories, pictures, or clips of young people mastering serious disciplines and bucking the trend towards instant gratification.

[TonyU]

I'd much rather post a video of a hard-working young black belt who is trying to be true to their art than some of those "masters" posting videos of themselves. That's the gag factor I was referring to.

I'm sorry. I guess I wasn't clear. What I meant by "not one of the better ones" was as far as a depiction of how we do the kata.
For example, her hand sequence towards the front are completely off and the kneeling is incorrect.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thanks for an interesting thread Tony. I am just as blind to the nuance in the kata as I was before... but now I KNOW that I'm blind to it, which is an improvement .

[wab25]

Just want to make sure that I am understanding things right. Is the throw in Pinan Godan seoi nage?

(and sorry for contributing to the gag factor... it was just the quickest video I could find that showed our version of deashi harai)

[Webmaster]

Just want to make sure that I am understanding things right. Is the throw in Pinan Godan seoi nage?

Yes, see the first post in this thread.

[Webmaster]

I'm sorry. I guess I wasn't clear. What I meant by "not one of the better ones" was as far as a depiction of how we do the kata.
For example, her hand sequence towards the front are completely off and the kneeling is incorrect.

Oh, you were clear. After seeing some of the total garage that folks post of themselves, I would still much rather post a video of a young hard-working black belt that is trying to be true to her art. It just wasn't my intent to critique her kata, but to post a clear example showing the throw being discussed.

[Abbax8]

I was going to guess Seoi-Nage. Now a question, is the kneeling done as part of the throw (as in judo's Seoi-Otoshi) or do you kneel after the throw has been executed.

Dennis

[TonyU]

I was going to guess Seoi-Nage. Now a question, is the kneeling done as part of the throw (as in judo's Seoi-Otoshi) or do you kneel after the throw has been executed.

Dennis

Good question. I learned as after. Like I said before landing on their ribs, but I guess that's a variation.

[wab25]

So, I went to youtube looking to find Deashi-harai in Gojushiho. I watched a few versions of Gojushiho, but have totally missed the Deashi-harai. The only part I could find that looked even close, was when he cross steps, but then the hands seem to be throwing uke in the wrong direction.

Anyway, if someone can help me find it, I would appreciate that. Its quite possible I am look at the wrong variations of Gojushiho...

[TonyU]

So, I went to youtube looking to find Deashi-harai in Gojushiho. I watched a few versions of Gojushiho, but have totally missed the Deashi-harai. The only part I could find that looked even close, was when he cross steps, but then the hands seem to be throwing uke in the wrong direction.

Anyway, if someone can help me find it, I would appreciate that. Its quite possible I am look at the wrong variations of Gojushiho...

It is the cross step. When we do it the emphasis is shown with the foot crossing over. The hand movement is something else entirely.

[wab25]

So if I understand correctly, the footwork is Deashi-Harai footwork, while the hands are doing some other unrelated technique? By that I mean that in Deashi Harai, if your sweeping foot crosses from right to left, your hands take uke from left to right, over the foot you just swept. So, in this kata, the hands are executing some part of a technique other than Deashi-Harai?

[Abbax8]

Good question. I learned as after. Like I said before landing on their ribs, but I guess that's a variation.

Is it the knee then that impacts the ribs ?

I ask because I've seen some Seoi-Nage taken to the ground where tori's body lands on ukes ribs .

Dennis

[TonyU]

So if I understand correctly, the footwork is Deashi-Harai footwork, while the hands are doing some other unrelated technique? By that I mean that in Deashi Harai, if your sweeping foot crosses from right to left, your hands take uke from left to right, over the foot you just swept. So, in this kata, the hands are executing some part of a technique other than Deashi-Harai?

Correct! The genius of karate.

[TonyU]

Is it the knee then that impacts the ribs ?

I ask because I've seen some Seoi-Nage taken to the ground where tori's body lands on ukes ribs .

Dennis

Also correct.

[Tripitaka of AA]

As an aside, related to the study of karate kata; A long long time ago, a friend who was a former kyokushinkai karateka described a section of a kata. He was describing the bunkai (as I now undertsand it to be called), of a particular move in his kata. He showed me a couple of movements which didn't immediately make sense to me, but involved a grasping hand reaching forwards low, then the other hand cutting forwards in a knife-hand shape as the first hand is drawn back and held to the side of the face (I assumed it was in a blocking position to protect the face). He then explained that the grasping hand was grabbing someone's testicles, the knife-hand was a strike and to assist in the ripping motion as the testicles were to be torn from the assailant and held up to the face as a prize. He explained that his Sensei had insisted it was necessary to include a smirk of victory at this point in the kata as though in celebration of the successful vasectomy. That was my first introduction to the hidden secrets of kata. Ever since then I wondered what was going on right in front of me, but hidden from view.

I'm sorry if that is a well-known part of a well-known kata, or a made-up bit of nonsense from someone who was making it all up. I wouldn't know the authentic from the fraudulent in this case. Reading this thread reminded me of that conversation which happened some 25 years ago.

[TonyU]

I think that sensei took a few liberties with that interpretation. I don't know from what kata they got that, but that is a bunkai within our Gojushiho. I learned two versions. In one, the bukai is grabbing and pulling the testes, although I don't know about being able to rip them off. Also, there is no interpretation of "smirking". On the current gojushiho I run it's just a nukite strike into the groin.

[wab25]

Ok, so I have been thinking about this thread for a few days, and came up with another question. How does the student actually learn the throws?

Using Deashi Harai as an example, it has been shown that it is contained in the kata. However, in the kata, only the footwork is done, while the hands do something else. There is more to Deashi Harai, than just the footwork, but lets take it as a given that the other parts are elsewhere in the katas, such that in learning all the katas the student will have all the pieces of Deashi Harai. At some point, the student needs to assemble and practice those pieces together to perform Deashi Harai?

From what Tony has said, his sensei understood these techniques and taught them. Does that mean Deashi Harai was assembled from the kata and practiced similar to the way a Judo or Jujitsu school would do? Or was it just shown and left as an exercise for the student to master? Some people have suggested that with good study of the kata the technique will come on its own when needed. What is the traditional way for these techniques to be passed down to the students?

[Tony Dismukes]

I was wondering the same thing. My experience with throws is that you need a lot of time spent actually throwing a training partner to develop any kind of usable skill with a given throw.