Breakfalling!

[Mekugi]

This summer I took a trip back to Oregon for my vacation.I got to do some training there with some excellent people and is always the highlight of my trips back home (which is usually during the winter holidays).

This time around I was lucky enough to hook up with some pro-wrestling friends of mine and do a little training with them. There is a plethora of information there and truly, there are a lot of "hookers" (a wrestler who has serious mat skills and proficient in submissions) in the business. Particularly interesting to me was their breakfalling, which they call "bumps". I have to admit, I learned a great deal about protecting yourself from harrowing throws and violent impact. It was extremely impressive and I recommend this to anyone in Jujutsu.

One thing that I noticed is that they take the majority of their "stay down" falls on their backs. The trainer I worked with, a personal friend of mine named Kelly Shafer, kept commenting on the way I took them on my side the majority of the time. He said I was certainly going to hurt myself if I took falls like this on concrete (which I have and did in fact injure myself) and I was more likely to tweak something (also true).

This got me to start thinking about the majority of jujutsu breakfalls, at least how I have been exposed to them. A lot of them are on the side...which made me question exactly: "why?" To me there is clearly more danger to the straightened leg at the knee and ankle, and a higher possibility of blowing the hip out, messing up the back and cracking the hand and elbow.

I started kicking the peanut around. I have been told several times over that breakfalls in Jujutsu are for escaping, that they are in essence a way to counter a throw by taking the "umph" away from it by going around it. That being said the breakfalls in a lot of the old school throws are "roll outs" to keep from being pounded like a sack of flour or having your coconut cracked wide open.

This eventually led me to thinking about Judo, which made breakfalling compulsory education during its the rise in the early 20th century. It seems a lot of old schools of the time did not teach breakfalling in any standardized way, it was something you learned hook or by crook; in a way Jigoro Kano pioneered a very important aspect of training. That of course started my gears turning around the idea of a back breakfall as seen in a point in competition. A full "ippon" (point) in a match is any throw in which the "uke" has their feet off the mat and lands mostly on the back, as compared to landing on the side.

During the early Summer, during the Nagoya Sumo Basho (the Sumo competition in Nagoya) I had a chance to talk and work with some Sumo wrestlers. They also do breakfalling as part of their training (IMHO Sumo is a gravely overlooked martial art in Japan) and do so in a very safe, realistic manner, again opting for a roll out rather than a staydown. A point for them is any part of the body other than the bottom of the feet touching the ground, so it doesn't matter what part touches the ground from a fall. Safety, however, is important.

Now I fully realize I am rationalizing and I may be headed in the wrong direction, but it became clear to me that most of the breakfalling we do comes mostly from Judo influence. Furthermore, within Judo the back breakfall is the least desireable within a modern context (aimed at competition) because it is most likely to lose a match. Putting two and two together, it seems as though the side breakfall is favored because it is less likely to lose a match and so the realistic, potential injury is overlooked because of that. In the real world throwing a person onto the hard concrete is a lot different than the mats used in competition, and so it is not of any consequence whether it applies in reality.

Now I am not saying that side breakfalls are unsafe. If one is trained in side breakfalling they stand a greater chance of being unscathed if thrown on hard stuff (yours truly speaking from experience here). Yet, it seems to me that back breakfalling are more advantageous in many ways.

Thoughts? I would love to hear them!

[Abbax8]

Russ,
Just a reflex response. I have always had an easier time landing in a side position than flat on my back. I was taught to basically land in a fetal position, leg bent at the knee, slight curl to the torso, leg, side and arm hitting at once, chin tucked in. Landing flat on the back arms and back hit at the same time, chin on chest to protect the head.

When I have been rattled they were always times when my landing was not textbook. A hard slap with a loud kiai have made monster falls manageable.

Now in judo, most throws will lead uke to their side on their own. To plant uke flat, tori must follow uke down or work to guide him flat on his back. But in training we learn to pull uke up at the last moment to assist in their fall. This also teaches tori to maintain control to follow with a joint lock. A good judoka will be able to control their body through the air to orient their body to land as they feel best.

What I have seen in pro wrestling are throws where tori launches uke into the air and lets go, this creates a different dynamic. The throw is designed to cause a splat factor and for entertainment purposes air time. I have had very hard falls from beginners when they took me over slow and my timing for my landing was off. It is with beginners that I often cheat and use my feet as shock absorbers. This is fine with slow throws but a recipie for injury with a powerful throw.

If I can rollout of a fall that is the easiest way to go.

One of the hardest falls I ever took was when I stepped off a curb on to snow covered ice, I went down fast, flat on my back. Instinct and training kicked in. I landed flat on back, arms out, head up. I got banged up a bit but I am certain that without my judo training that fall would have killed or crippled me. So I have to admit that landing flat is also useful.

Dennis

[Jonathan Randall]

Russ,
One of the hardest falls I ever took was when I stepped off a curb on to snow covered ice, I went down fast, flat on my back. Instinct and training kicked in. I landed flat on back, arms out, head up. I got banged up a bit but I am certain that without my judo training that fall would have killed or crippled me. So I have to admit that landing flat is also useful.

Dennis

That is exactly what happened to me when I got hit by a car in the Sears parking lot (where I worked in the late 1980's). However; I can do you one better. My tucking my head in kept a couple of centimeters between the back of my head and the concrete parking chock (wheel stop) I landed next to.

So. Have I used Judo on the str33tz? Yes! When I got hit by a car.

By the way, thanks for a thought provoking post, Russ. I have a lot of respect for pro-wrestlers. So much, in fact, that were I to have to fight one, I would insist on a loaded shotgun and 20 feet head start...

[Webmaster]

I saw this thread earlier today, but with work and class tonight, haven't had a lot of time to come up with a reply, but Dennis pretty well covered it for me.

A couple of other comments if I might. Whether one lands on the back or in a side fall position, the whole idea of ukemi is to spread out the force of the fall over a wider area of the body. Like striking with a knifehand versus a strike with the flat palm, the knifehand has a smaller surface area and penetration into the target is deeper... the energy is concentrated, whereas the flat palm spreads the energy over a wider area and you have less penetration. Taking a fall should work the same way, and by spreading out the force of the fall over a wider area, you're less likely to be injured. To illustrate this point, I have my students lay in a sidefall position, and then lift their lower leg (or both legs). What you get is an instant shift of weight to the hip, and if that was a throw, most of the force would be concentrated there.

Oh, and if you can roll out, please do. You'll last longer...

Since Dennis related a fall story, I guess I'll tell one of my own. It's one my students have all heard.

When Judy and I were living in Seattle, I used to ride my bike to and from work everyday in downtown Seattle. If you are not familiar with Seattle, it has lots of big hills! I was riding down toward Puget Sound to take the road (Alaskan?, 1st Ave?) home. I forgot about the railroad tracks I had gone over hundreds of times. Anyway, front wheel got caught in the track, and I went over the handlebars at 25-30 MPH. I realized as I was going over that I needed to tuck and roll, just like I had done so many times in the dojo... so I did! Rolled right along with my bike (feet were still in the clips) and landed in a left sidefallish position and the bike went flying down the street. After laying there and checking myself for injuries, I sat up and was met by some folks who asked if I was okay. I told them I was, and they said how "Cool" that looked. So big nasty fall and only a few scrapes and bruises. One thing I found interesting though was when I took off my helmet (shaking like crazy), I discovered a deep scrape that ran along the top of the helmet. What that told me was if I had not instinctively tucked and rolled, I would have likely "lawn-darted" myself into the pavement, and I would not be typing this today.

Ukemi works folks...

[TonyU]

Ukemi works folks...

Absolutely! I could regale you guys with stories as well, but I won't.
Anyway, to get back to the wrestlers. Don't they train and perform on specially built rings that are designed to absorb quite a bit of the impact?

[Jonathan Randall]

Absolutely! I could regale you guys with stories as well, but I won't.
Anyway, to get back to the wrestlers. Don't they train and perform on specially built rings that are designed to absorb quite a bit of the impact?

That has been my understanding as well. Also, they since Judo has its roots in koryu jiu-jitsu - couldn't Japanese ukemi be designed around medieval warfare as well as streetfighting against possibly armed opponents who were also skilled at atemi? Just my thoughts; you folks would know better than I.

[wab25]

It would be great to see some pictures or video of the wrestlers falling positions that were described in the first post.

Our side fall position is a bit different. We land with chin tucked in,and both shoulders hit the mat. On a right side fall, the right arm slaps, and the right leg is bent at the knee. The right leg lays flat on the ground, bent at the knee, so that the foot is on the left side of the body. The left knee is pointed straight up, the leg is bent so that the left foot comes down, with the foot hitting the mat across the right shin, striking the mat with the ball of the foot. Ideally, uke should be in a straight line, facing straight up, chin tucked in.

[Webmaster]

Our side fall position is a bit different. We land with chin tucked in,and both shoulders hit the mat.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but how the heck can you land in a sidefall position with both shoulders hitting the mat? That would require you to be simultaneously flat on your back and then twisted at the waist to the side. If I am reading this right, that would seem to be a recipe for a variety of injuries.

[wab25]

I tried to find a youtube video, showing our side fall position, figuring that would be better then my use of words. I could not find a good video of the falling position on youtube. But, I did find a video, with a couple of quick examples, but you need to follow the link, and watch the preview for the DVD.

http://www.filmbaby.com/films/2404

At 15 seconds in, is an over head view and at 31 seconds in a side view. (they happen fast, but it is the best I could find at the moment)

These are the practice drills, we use to teach our breakfalls. I guess where the confusion comes, when looking at a Judo fall, where the chest and hips are facing the same direction, parallel to the floor. When we land, chest and hips face the ceiling, perpendicular to the floor. The body is straight, not curled. The chin is tucked, to protect the head, the hips are lifted up, to prevent the pelvis from striking the concrete. The hips are rotated a few degrees, so that the cheek hits the ground. Too much rotation leads to injuries, either from the twisting or hitting the point of the hip on the ground.

When you see these falls, taken from a throw, instead of the drill, you will see the one shoulder up, as tori supports uke's fall by pulling up on the sleeve.

[Rasputin]

I had assumed that a big reason why jujutsu teaches breakfalls and not just rolls is because, in theory, when you are practicing kata Tori is expected to take total control of uke from start of the technique to the finish, which should be a simulated death. When i throw someone whose joint is locked, I am guiding them to land exactly as I want them to, for their own safety as well as to minimize their ability to continue the fight.

In a perfect scenario, if they roll out of the technique, it is because I allowed it to happen. Ideally, were they to roll out of the fall, they would have to sacrifice whatever joint I have locked to do so. I find myself having to coach aikidoka who are accustomed to rolling out of every technique to take an actual breakfall so that I don't destroy their joint when they try to roll out of it.

I can see how, in a street situation, it would be far preferable to roll out of a fall than to take a breakfall, but during training it would mean (in jujutsu) that either:

1. The technique is broken
or
2. I did not follow the technique to completion for whatever reason.

I hope I didn't confuse things further.

[Webmaster]

I tried to find a youtube video, showing our side fall position, figuring that would be better then my use of words. I could not find a good video of the falling position on youtube. But, I did find a video, with a couple of quick examples, but you need to follow the link, and watch the preview for the DVD.

http://www.filmbaby.com/films/2404

Sorry, but that's not a sidefall despite slapping on one side, and it's not a very good backfall either. It's some weird hybrid, but as long as it works...

Oh, and the "Professor" sucks...

[TonyU]

Is it me, or is the forward roll at the beginning a good way to break your wrist? I was taught that you want to make yourself round as in a wheel. That goes against that theory. I'm asking because as a karateka maybe I'm wrong.

[Webmaster]

Is it me, or is the forward roll at the beginning a good way to break your wrist? I was taught that you want to make yourself round as in a wheel. That goes against that theory. I'm asking because as a karateka maybe I'm wrong.

Yep, he's putting his right palm down to slow himself. Great way to break your wrist and something I have to break my white and yellow belts from doing. Not something I would expect from a "Professor".

Good catch Tony!

[wab25]

Is it me, or is the forward roll at the beginning a good way to break your wrist? I was taught that you want to make yourself round as in a wheel. That goes against that theory. I'm asking because as a karateka maybe I'm wrong.

Which time are you referring too?

When we do a forward roll, the object is to be round, as you say. One of the drills we do, however, is to go into a inverted stand, on the one elbow, using the other for balance. Then, depending on which drill we are doing, we roll down out of it, curving the back forward, as in a roll or we fall over, arching our back the other way, to prevent the pelvis from striking the ground. The roll out helps learn to roll out of very high falls where you are coming down head first. The fall is one of the building block steps we use to teach what we call a "side fall." That is the fall we take from ogoshi. And its not a good back fall, because thats not our version of a back fall. That is a different position.

I am in no position to change the titles held by leadership in the AJJF. I did read your piece on Professor. All I can offer is the Danzan Ryu history of the title Professor as we use it:

Originally, Seishiro Okazaki was called "The Professor" as a term of endearment by those who respected him and knew of his selfless giving to the community. It originally held no titular significance to Jujitsu. During his lifetime, there were no other people called Professor; he was the only one. After Prof. Okazaki's passing, his organization, the American Jujitsu Institute (AJI) held an election in 1952 to select a replacement Professor. The candidates were William Ah Moo and Sig Kufferath. (John Cahill was also an original candidate, but he was deemed to be ineligible since he no longer lived in the islands.) Kufferath won the election by a large margin. He remained the only Professor until the late 1950's and early 1960's when others were given this title. Today, the title is awarded to those people of high rank (5th through 7th Dan depending on the organization) who have made exceptional contributions to the art. Prof. Sig Kufferath passed away in 1999.

http://danzan.com/HTML/intro.pdf

[TonyU]

I've seen a few wrists broken in my time.

Which time are you referring too?

Right at the beginning.

[Webmaster]

I've seen a few wrists broken in my time.


Right at the beginning.

Me too...

William will be back to tell you that the "Professor" is actually doing a "Stemi" (or something like that) and not actually a roll. The way I learned a "Stemi" was to do it as a full handstand, and then either you yank the hands away and twist into a proper back or side fall, or in the case of a rollout, you shift the body toward one side or the other so that when you do roll out, you do not turn the wrist back. Instead, roll out to the side of the wrist so that it is not endangered.

[TonyU]

Me too...

William will be back to tell you that the "Professor" is actually doing a "Stemi" (or something like that) and not actually a roll. The way I learned a "Stemi" was to do it as a full handstand, and then either you yank the hands away and twist into a proper back or side fall, or in the case of a rollout, you shift the body toward one side or the other so that when you do roll out, you do not turn the wrist back. Instead, roll out to the side of the wrist so that it is not endangered.

Ok. I hate to be picky though, but it didn't look at all like what you're describing. It looked to me like an improperly executed forward roll. Then again, what do I know. I don't do judo or jujutsu.

[wab25]

When I found the clip, I was looking for the falling position, not a roll... so I did not pay much attention to the roll. When the question was asked, I assumed he meant drill shown starting at time 16 sec, where he goes from standing, to pause on his elbow, then rolls out. I thought that pause on the elbow, was what was being questioned.

Looking at the first forward roll done, I agree, that is not a position that I would put my right hand in. Ideally, the right hand would not be used at all, only the left arm in that roll.

I would like to see what you guys consider to be good rolling and falling technique. I did look up judo rolls on youtube, and found many more examples of people rolling and using the right hand, also on the mat. Some put more and some put less weight on the right hand.

I look forward to seeing better examples.

[TonyU]

When I found the clip, I was looking for the falling position, not a roll... so I did not pay much attention to the roll. When the question was asked, I assumed he meant drill shown starting at time 16 sec, where he goes from standing, to pause on his elbow, then rolls out. I thought that pause on the elbow, was what was being questioned.

Looking at the first forward roll done, I agree, that is not a position that I would put my right hand in. Ideally, the right hand would not be used at all, only the left arm in that roll.

I would like to see what you guys consider to be good rolling and falling technique. I did look up judo rolls on youtube, and found many more examples of people rolling and using the right hand, also on the mat. Some put more and some put less weight on the right hand.

I look forward to seeing better examples.

Excellent! That explains it. I did see that at the 16 second mark and that makes sense.
As far as forward rolls, I learned it two different ways. One way, the lead hand palm facing you so you start rolling on the back of the hand and follows through the back of the arm. The other, was following the outer edge of the hand. I think either way works just fine. I say either because of all the rolls I've taken personally and professionally I don't recall which way I performed them. Just that I was able to get up pretty much unscathed. What I did learn was that the key to a good roll and to make your arms and body as round as possible and not have any "edges" or "corners" if you will.

Now to get back to the wrestlers. While they know how to take a fall and do a phenominal job minimizing their impact I think they're techniques are are born of a sport of entertainment, not of a combative art. While one can argue that as MAist there is value in what they do and could probably incorporate some of their techniques I'm of the opinion that our falling techniques are not only adequate but above par. No need to reinvent the wheel, per se.

[wab25]

Excellent! That explains it. I did see that at the 16 second mark and that makes sense.
As far as forward rolls, I learned it two different ways. One way, the lead hand palm facing you so you start rolling on the back of the hand and follows through the back of the arm. The other, was following the outer edge of the hand. I think either way works just fine. I say either because of all the rolls I've taken personally and professionally I don't recall which way I performed them. Just that I was able to get up pretty much unscathed. What I did learn was that the key to a good roll and to make your arms and body as round as possible and not have any "edges" or "corners" if you will.

I have been taught those two variations. Most of the Danzan Ryu guy teach the edge of hand method, with the back of the hand method as a variation.

So, am I still confused? Were you questioning his lead hand or back hand? The back hand I don't like, but the lead hand I can't see well enough to tell whether he is using the edge or palm.