Breakfalling!

[TonyU]

So, am I still confused? Were you questioning his lead hand or back hand? The back hand I don't like, but the lead hand I can't see well enough to tell whether he is using the edge or palm.

I can see it. Lead hand. Not only is he collapsing the wrist he's going fingers forward, which is why he's collapsing it. With the two ways I described earlier fingers should be pointed back at you.

[Webmaster]

Heck, I was talking about the back hand.

If you note in the picture I posted, he is putting full weight on the palm of his right hand. If you watch the video, you can see the wrist flex backward. That is what I was referring to and what unfortunately, many folks tend to do. If you want to position the hand in that manner, that's okay as long as you do not put weight on it and there is a pretty quick transition to the roll. Many, many folks use the right hand, as is in the video that William posted, to stop or slow their fall.... basically, catching themselves. It's a sign of the natural discomfort of taking a fall from their early training which has developed into a bad habit.

[wab25]

I can see it. Lead hand. Not only is he collapsing the wrist he's going fingers forward, which is why he's collapsing it. With the two ways I described earlier fingers should be pointed back at you.

I went back and tried stepping through the video, noting his front hand this time. And, I agree with you Tony. All and all, not the best demonstration of a forward roll.

Personally, I am a little surprised to see him roll like that. I have been on the mat with him a number of times, and never seen him roll like that before. Which is probably why I never even looked at his roll, and assumed you were talking about the other guy. Why its on a 100$ DVD, and why he is rolling that way, when he normally doesn't, I don't know.

Anyway, the things you guys are pointing out, are things my senseis pointed out to me, and have corrected in me, when I was white belt.

I would still like to see examples of what you guys consider good break falls.

[Mekugi]

It would be great to see some pictures or video of the wrestlers falling positions that were described in the first post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH3OqHKiNWs

[Mekugi]

Russ,
Just a reflex response. I have always had an easier time landing in a side position than flat on my back. I was taught to basically land in a fetal position, leg bent at the knee, slight curl to the torso, leg, side and arm hitting at once, chin tucked in. Landing flat on the back arms and back hit at the same time, chin on chest to protect the head.

When I have been rattled they were always times when my landing was not textbook. A hard slap with a loud kiai have made monster falls manageable.

Now in judo, most throws will lead uke to their side on their own. To plant uke flat, tori must follow uke down or work to guide him flat on his back. But in training we learn to pull uke up at the last moment to assist in their fall. This also teaches tori to maintain control to follow with a joint lock. A good judoka will be able to control their body through the air to orient their body to land as they feel best.

What I have seen in pro wrestling are throws where tori launches uke into the air and lets go, this creates a different dynamic. The throw is designed to cause a splat factor and for entertainment purposes air time. I have had very hard falls from beginners when they took me over slow and my timing for my landing was off. It is with beginners that I often cheat and use my feet as shock absorbers. This is fine with slow throws but a recipie for injury with a powerful throw.

If I can rollout of a fall that is the easiest way to go.

One of the hardest falls I ever took was when I stepped off a curb on to snow covered ice, I went down fast, flat on my back. Instinct and training kicked in. I landed flat on back, arms out, head up. I got banged up a bit but I am certain that without my judo training that fall would have killed or crippled me. So I have to admit that landing flat is also useful.

Dennis

I had a similar experience on ice in Oregon which would have opened my head up (just gave me a headache though)....and in a slippery gym floor in Japan, and on the concrete outside my house....ok I am not the most graceful of people...I tend to slip and fall because I am usually in a hurry or I am doing something stupid. The one that I had the most witnesses to was when I was 23 and using a Honda 175 to zip down a shooting range to change targets for a competition. The brakes gave out on the way back and I had to dump the bike sideways on front of about 15 people (with my mother and ex-wife watching and screaming inside). I ended up launching over the bike and rolling out, landing in front of the crowd. I stood there for about three seconds, both sides staring back and forth out of shock and I lifted my arms and said "tadaa". Needless to say, no one was impressed. That being said....breakfalls are essential and I am a complete believer. Don't get me wrong.

On slapping: I have long given up slapping the ground. I have had too many ouchies from that and it was a habit that was broken (for me) out of numbness and damage to my limbs. The hard earth is not forgiving like tatami (or, at least in my case) so I have had nothing but hand injuries and bruised palms. I have taken to either landing on the muscle of the tricep, with the forearm close to the body in order to keep the weight even on the land (keeping the elbow off the ground), or to letting the arm hit flat at the same time as the body does (it depends on the throw). I am not sure if that is clear (in reading this back to myself I am not sure I can make it any clearer without it sounding more dangerous than it is) but it has been working for me and my arms and hands thanking me. (Plus I can write after class...something I had to wait a good 45 minutes to do before, even taking a train ticket from my wallet was a chore).

This is the warp and woof of what I am getting at:
As for the side fall....while it is important to know how to fall this way, we're all trained to fall that way first and foremost. My contention is that because the weight is unevenly distributed to one side of the body, it can be more damaging in the long run- while a back breakfalls are "evenly" taking the impact along a greater area, thus dispersing it. It seems to my that this is a training issue. I am not certain, but I am fairy sure that most of us learned to fall that way at first and that is the way we are trained to take most of our breakfalls. I am also not certain that is the best method for every throw...and while it is easier to learn and does keep the ippon monster away in competition, it may be more damaging if the dynamics of the throw are not embraced, if that makes any sense.

While "selling" is important in professional wrestling, the fact is the height of those falls and they way they take the fall with relatively no injury is essential. Yes, the "uke" is posting, pushing and jumping for height, and there is an art to selling the throws (extremely impressive and acrobatic, I must say) however the breakfall is designed to protect and not to sell like the throw. Selling is something you do *before and after* the impact. In fact, while talking with them I found that although they land harder with higher throws, the "air time" gives them a chance to flatten out to distribute their weight evenly, thus lessening the risk of damage on the land. In some ways the smaller falls are harder because they have to flatten out quickly, thus making it more active and potentially damaging. More or less, the breakfall on the back is the way they take the bigger, more dangerous throws...and thus my point. Anyway, it is something to look into and I would encourage anyone to see how this is done by them. It was certainly eye opening and I believe there is something to be gleaned from them regarding the mechanics of taking falls and there are certainly skills that we share.

[TonyU]

Let me add another twist to this whole thing. Which fall would leave more room for error? In other words an improper executed side break fall may break what? Leg, hip, arm. wrist, maybe even ribs. Survivable, no? Can we say the same for a rear break fall? Less room for error, maybe?
Just a thought.
Unfortunately, in this job I've seen many injuries due to falls. Amazing what the body can survive.

[Mekugi]

This is a really good point, Tony. My vote is of course, 1. rolling out and then 2.a back breakfall leaves more room for error. My reasoning is that a rollout can be turned into a breakfall and that a back breakfall can be turned into a side breakfall.

Let me add another twist to this whole thing. Which fall would leave more room for error? In other words an improper executed side break fall may break what? Leg, hip, arm. wrist, maybe even ribs. Survivable, no? Can we say the same for a rear break fall? Less room for error, maybe?
Just a thought.
Unfortunately, in this job I've seen many injuries due to falls. Amazing what the body can survive.

[Webmaster]

Hey Russ,

I think that the type of throw definitely dictates the type of fall. One thing that is noticeable about each of the wrestling throws is that they are all designed to direct the throw to the back. For instance when you see the "uke" being picked up in what is essentially a kata guruma, the "tori" is able to position "uke" in a manner to be directed to the back rather than being thrown more to the side as in a orthodox kata guruma. I have attached a couple of images, one from the video and another from a Kata Guruma instructional video. As you can see, in the wrestling version of the throw, "uke" is being positioned to land on his back. Not so with the Kata Guruma and most Judo and Jujutsu throws where angle of the body when thrown is not as optimal as the wrestling throw, and the suddenness of impact as necessitating a fall more to the side.

I think that part of the reason for the sidefall position is a compromise between safe falling technique, and the need to be able to defend yourself once on the ground. Just my opinion, but in a sidefall position, I am better able to protect myself from an attack above me or even my opponent falling on top of me. By being turned 45 degrees to one side or another, I am able to put a leg and an arm between me and any possible attack and my vital organs are not laid straight out for someone to remove.

The bottom line is that we have different methods for taking different types of falls. Just like we have many different throws for different circumstances, we have different ways of taking those throws. What is appropriate for one may not be best for another, and they all have their weakness' and strengths. It's up to the person being thrown to develop the skill and sensitivity to instinctively use whatever is best for the circumstance. Sadly, ukemi is becoming a lost art.

[TonyU]

Sadly, ukemi is becoming a lost art.

You really think so, even in judo and jujutsu? I would seem that it being such an integral part of those arts it wouldn't be the case. Kinda hard to do one without the other.

[Mekugi]

Good points. I may be missing the mark with my original post, but it is becoming clearer now...the throw does dictate the breakfall. Maybe it is just me, but I am used to seeing all throws as a side breakfall situation and used to taking them that way. Maybe the fault of my own, or bad habits. I've started to see this in other people as well. I am not sure if everyone else does this, (wouldn't surprise me if they didn't) but as things are not healing as quickly as they used to I am starting to look for different ways of doing things and changing my side breakfalls to back breakfalls. So far so good.

The side does provide more protection as the upside legs and arms are there to protect the top, it is also in position for ebi (shrimp swimming) if pinned. There are advantages.....I cannot deny. I am thinking of merely taking the fall, not what comes after I guess.

Hey Russ,

I think that the type of throw definitely dictates the type of fall....
The bottom line is that we have different methods for taking different types of falls. Just like we have many different throws for different circumstances, we have different ways of taking those throws. What is appropriate for one may not be best for another, and they all have their weakness' and strengths. It's up to the person being thrown to develop the skill and sensitivity to instinctively use whatever is best for the circumstance. Sadly, ukemi is becoming a lost art.

[Webmaster]

You really think so, even in judo and jujutsu? I would seem that it being such an integral part of those arts it wouldn't be the case. Kinda hard to one without the other.

Most definitely in the Judo world. Ukemi, at least as it is traditionally taught, is discouraged in many competition oriented schools. Instead, they teach "turnouts" so that they do not land on their back. They will literally land on their stomach and risk injury than be scored on.

[Mekugi]

A side rollout from Hiki Otoshi in Sumo. Note: in Sumo there are many false starts. This one is no different. Fast forward to 1:29-1:30 to get to the technique and the rollout. For a big match this builds up tension and it makes for some excitement if you care about the wrestlers....in this case you have to stare at some guy's butt bending over in a thong for a minute and a half. Not pleasant.
http://youtu.be/Ks7fahViC98

[Webmaster]

A side rollout from Hiki Otoshi in Sumo. Note: in Sumo there are many false starts. This one is no different. Fast forward to 1:29-1:30 to get to the technique and the rollout. For a big match this builds up tension and it makes for some excitement if you care about the wrestlers....in this case you have to star at some guy's butt in a thong for a minute and a half. Not pleasant.
http://youtu.be/Ks7fahViC98

Nice rollout and a lot of body hitting the ground. That is also not an angle I ever wish to see another guy's butt from.

[Mekugi]

Yeah you cannot unsee that....

Here is a rather good compilation of throws and falls, some better than others...put to some heavy metal music (make sure to turn this down...doesn't bother me but well, it may scare the kids).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G72bQBMZmzs

Notice they land a lot on the hips because they are trying to stay upright and not embracing the throw...

Nice rollout and a lot of body hitting the ground. That is also not an angle I ever wish to see another guy's butt from.

[Webmaster]

Great video Russ. Love to watch Sumo... though I may have issues after that first video. Some of the throws in the later half of the video were brutal. Definitely got an involuntary cringe out of me.

[Mekugi]

Hey, how about a sticky on the current situation of breakfalls and the pros and cons, injury, proper training etc?? Everyone chime in, I can compile it as a single post...full credits all around??

[Webmaster]

Go for it Russ! If we can get Ellis Amdur in on this, that would be terrific. He really knows his stuff on the subject.

[Mekugi]

This can be really good! Anyone wanting to summarize their posts, give points and whatnot please do...I am going to start compiling in a little while, letting others catch up!

[TonyU]

This can be really good! Anyone wanting to summarize their posts, give points and whatnot please do...I am going to start compiling in a little while, letting others catch up!

Excellent! Here's something I'll add. Take some time to train your falls in your everyday clothes, especially if you carry things on your belt, like cell phones and the such. Now, I'm not saying to practice with your cell phone on as you may break it, but use some type of simile. Same with things in you back pockets

For example, I one time had no choice but to perform a side breakfall. Unfortunately it was in my gun side. It hurt like hell. From then on I knew what it felt like and also knew that i could continue from there. I also once did a forward roll. Nothing like my handcuff case digging into my kidney.
When I used to teach the recruits, once they had a basic knowledge of the falls and rolls, I had them practice them with their duty belt on. Not only did it give them an idea what it felt like they also learned proper placement of their gear.

[Tripitaka of AA]

How do you feel about learning the breakfalls? On mats, or on wooden floors? just at first, or always?

In Shorinji Kempo there are a lot of wrist locks that become throws. The throws end up requiring a jumping ukemi that has the thrown person trying to rotate enough to land on the feet. Most of the dojo had wooden floors and the ukemi (meaning the forward rolls, side rolls, backward rolls) were learned an practiced on the wooden floor. The "flying" ukemi in the the throws is spectacular to see, but is it realistic? I'm no Judoka and people who spend more of their time flying through the air upside down have told me that the "ideal" flying ukemi as a response to some of those throws would simply not be possible.
This clip shows some High School kids in a national taikai (okay, the clip is old and one of the kids is now 7th dan )