Students Who Cross-train in Different Arts

[rainesr]

I have a question for the instructors out there.

I may have an opportunity to try some Systema. I have always been curious about Sambo and Systema because I had family that practiced these arts and I never had a chance to learn from them. I put out my feelers and I am pretty sure taking another art may mildly to moderately insult my Sifu.

Would you take offense if your student was training at a different school (presumably a different style) and why?


~Rob

[SifuRestita]

That's a tough question, because it does depend on the teacher or the traditonality of the style. Personally, I encourage my students to cross train, because I don't know everything and because I believe a well rounded martial artist is a good martial artist. For example If there's a JuJitsu seminar in town, I'll post the info and let people decide if they wish to attend.....however I remind them to represent their school well and be polite, open minded, etc etc. I also encourage the students who like the fighting aspects to try internal arts, and vice versa.

The only problem I see, however, is trying a new art too soon. I suggest that people get at least a grip on their fundamentals first (or at least their first color rank) before cross training. I believe that all martial arts are variations on a theme, of sorts......and if one understands basic body mechanics as it applies to martial arts, it will allow for an understanding of how body mechanics can be applied in different techniques from other systems.

However, if cross training, do remember what your "home school" is, and I don't suggest making comments like "well that's not how THEY do it at the other school." At that point, your mind will have closed, and further benefits of cross training will be harder to come by.

-Restita

[Eliz]

Depends on the student.

A nebulous answer, I know.

For students who are still finding their niche, so to speak, cross training frequently becomes a list of comparisons that can invade mat time. Think basic manners. If one is training in traditional kata it is NOT the time to ask why your JJ instructor calls kata "Vertical Death." But such questions and time invasions do occur.

Other students seem to be able to quietly absorb the different techniques/training mind sets without disruption.

Good luck to you and I hope it works out for you.

[nirgle]

Would you take offense if your student was training at a different school (presumably a different style) and why?

Apart from what has already been said about starting a new art too soon (which was well put by the two messages above), these days there is still a part of cross-training that will strike chords of disloyalty in older, more traditional teachers. I myself don't understand it, as I would encourage my students to cross train once they reach a certain level if I was a teacher, but regardless of understanding it or not, there it is. This probably still stems from hundreds of years ago where martial arts were kept in the family, where loyalty was linked to survival and made much more sense. These days (to me anyway) it seems like a relic of the past and smacks a bit of jealousy more than anything. I am respectful 100% of it nonetheless and can only resolve to be different in my own ways if I ever have a student base of my own some day down the road.

Or perhaps on that day, "[I'll] understand"?

[twrekx]

I have never seen it as a problem. Now days I am seeing more schools offering the cross training. The school I train at currently teaches Tae Kwon Do (ITF system), Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Commando Krav Maga.

I find most instructors now days don't mind as long as you are not going to a competing school of the same style as your home school

[Erik]

Some instructors, the decent ones, may be resistant to having a student cross-train because they may be learning different habits which could interfere with their training. For example, say you do that "melting" breakfall in Systema by reflex instead of a slap-out breakfall. Could result in injury. Your instructor may or may not know the difference but they may be mindful of this kind of problem.

Also, the student may start asking "what about this? what about that?" which can derail class time. Instructor may be thinking "we'll get to it, sit tight!" or "this is just not how we handle that kind of technique" or something like that. Other instructors are afraid you'll find something you like better and that they'll loose their student. Or, may just feel threatened that he may loose face in front of the class. Remember, it can be overwhelming trying to teach something that is potentially dangerous to a whole bunch of people at a whole bunch of levels. It can overload an instructor's brain. Not their fault. It's perfectly human.

Sometimes cross training can be great, like with BJJ and Judo (mind the differences in rules, though!) or with Muay Thai and BJJ (GREAT combination!) The former compliment each other beautifully (with the right attitudes) and the latter are in different domains entirely (grappling vs. striking) so they don't trip each other up.

[rainesr]

I don't suggest making comments like "well that's not how THEY do it at the other school." At that point, your mind will have closed, and further benefits of cross training will be harder to come by.

Think basic manners. If one is training in traditional kata it is NOT the time to ask why your JJ instructor calls kata "Vertical Death." But such questions and time invasions do occur.

This is sound advice even if you are just visiting another school. I try to never talk about my prior Tang Soo Do training at Kung Fu class. I am not under the impression anyone is there to learn TSD, including me. I would keep the same attitude if I took any two arts concurrently.

[Erik]

Just remember that you're learning TSD, or Systema, Karate, Jiu Jitsu, or whatever martial art, as opposed to the One True Way to fight (there's no such thing). So you're learning a degree, like in school, and different groups have different ways of approaching the same problem. The practitioners and the knowledge base can trip each other up very easily.

Not a lot of instructors or practitioners understand this and even fewer can wrap their minds around it and accept it in their daily life.

One thing I loved about my old Judo club is that people were happy discussing the Judo, BJJ, competition MMA or "street" way (most of us were bouncers together and applied our training and discussed it after the fact) of doing a certain technique. Everyone knew that there existed a variety of approaches to the same technique, be it a choke, kimura, pin, etc. And it was easy enough to simply say "we're just doing Judo today" and that was that. No pistol-gripping the sleeve, no submissions of a certain type below a certain belt level, and so on.

[rainesr]

Just remember that you're learning TSD, or Systema, Karate, Jiu Jitsu, or whatever martial art, as opposed to the One True Way to fight (there's no such thing).

Tibetian White Crane Kung Fu is not the One True Way to Fight?

So you're learning a degree, like in school, and different groups have different ways of approaching the same problem. The practitioners and the knowledge base can trip each other up very easily.

I have had this happen with my TSD training popping up in Kung Fu class. I know the TSD technique will work, but in the context of what I am doing in Kung Fu it can be a hindrance. This doesn't happen very often anymore now that I am a bit more comfortable with the new body mechanics and stances.

~Rob

[Erik]

Good point, Robert. I guess the ultimate answer to your question is to practice the TSD way when in TSD and the Kung Fu way in the Kung Fu class. Grapplers must wrestle with this when cross-training (pun was intentional ).

Imagine this - in BJJ you may not do leg submissions before blue belt because it's considered too dangerous for a beginner. In Judo you may not armlock (or choke, I forget which) before a certain level because it's considered too dangerous for a beginner. In Sambo you may not choke (or armlock, I forget which) before a certain level because it's considered too dangerous for a beginner. So if you come from one style to the next, suddenly you're a beginner again and your bread and butter is no longer legal.

It's confusing (especially for a moron like myself).

But, if you have a bunch of people who are used to cross-training then you can at least remind each other of the rules and understand what the other guy means.

[RickMatz]

Well, first you have to snatch that pebble from your current teacher's hand ...

[rainesr]

I spoke to one of the remaining Systema group members before I went on vacation a couple weeks ago, the group is no more, but now he attends class with me at Kung Fu. He had been looking for a place and took some Kung Fu before.

I also spoke to my Sifu and he was only concerned that I not take an art that had a lot of forms coupled with different body mechanics. He used the Tang Soo Do I used to take as an example.

He had no issues with things like Aikido, JJJ, Systema, Judo, Sambo, Krav Maga etc...

[Mekugi]

Good that it worked out. Are you pleased with your outcome?

[rainesr]

Can't complain,

We have a new student at Kung Fu who seems like a good guy and someone who will stay. No loss there.

I missed out on Systema/Sambo but I will find something to fill in my extra training day.

As I become more comfortable to the body mechanics at Kung Fu my Tang Soo Do forms feel awkward, so I have no problems with what my Sifu said. Makes sense to me. I have gotten to the point where I really only like the Niahanchi form anymore, anything with a forward stance (Chun Gul Jae Sae) feels odd.

~Rob

[KnghtAzrael]

While I'm not currently training I was lucky enough that my sensei not only encouraged cross training and experiencing other arts but actually invites instructors to do seminars in their arts at our school. So as well as the karate, jujutsu, aikido and weapons I was learning from him, I've taken seminars on Tai Chi, Systema, other karate forms, Panchak silat ect. However out of respect for my instructor I would never attend another school on a permanent basis with out first obtaining his permision. I know I'm no expert by far and certainly no instructor but I like my senseis belief in experiencing other arts to learn things beyond what you normally do. I learned for example while the style of silat at the seminar was a great art it's movements are to awkaward for my body and would have been a bad fit for me as a permenant style.

[Mekugi]

Hmmm...this bring up an interesting topic....should martial arts adjust to us or should we adjust ourselves to the martial arts? Within reason, of course. e.g. one cannot do capoeira without be able to meet the dexterity of handstands..

[KnghtAzrael]

Hmmm...this bring up an interesting topic....should martial arts adjust to us or should we adjust ourselves to the martial arts? Within reason, of course. e.g. one cannot do capoeira without be able to meet the dexterity of handstands..

It is an interesting topic. I believe with in reason a little of both is good. For example my sensei was very good at understanding certain limitations I had being a severe asthmatic and having trouble maintaining push up positions ect. When I did TKD as a kid my best wasn't good enough if I couldn't keep up with the class I got screamed at ect. With this sensei as long as I gave my absolute 100% and didn't slack off he was ok with what I could do and this continually encouraged me to try and improve myself. He always believed that if a persons limitation could reasonably be accomadated he would. However I also feel that without trying to improve and adjust yourself to be better at your choosen art in ways you can, your not doing yourself any good and not showing your sensei and art the right ammount of respect and commitment.

Given time I might be able to adapt into silat better but given my size I found the in close knife work between my body and my partners body to be to awkward to allow the kind of accuracy, movement and power required. I beleive some forms naturally limit themselves to people of a certain type, I could never dream of being able to do arts like Capoeira that require acrobatics, or from demos I've seen wing chun that require massive speed. I've even had issues adpating into karate because I was never much into throwing closed fist strikes or kicks, so I had to change myself for it. I still prefer keeping my hands open and using control techniques.

[rainesr]

Hmmm...this bring up an interesting topic....should martial arts adjust to us or should we adjust ourselves to the martial arts? Within reason, of course. e.g. one cannot do capoeira without be able to meet the dexterity of handstands..

I don't think you could learn a martial art without adjusting yourself to it, but I would think it absurd to expect every student to express the art exactly the same. Everyone is at least a little different structurally and mentally.

~Rob

[Eliz]

....should martial arts adjust to us or should we adjust ourselves to the martial arts? .

We adjust to the martial art.
After years of learning the skills, the martial art will then adjust to us.

Example: I have difficulty executing a few Hapkido techniques on much taller/stronger opponents. I was never invited to change the technique to better meet my needs - it is expected that I will continue to practice the technique, as it is taught, to gain fluency. After many years of practicing I have learned to combine techniques thereby rendering larger opponents "managable."

Raymond,
I agree with you on fitness limitations overall but some pre-existing conditions can be deal breakers.

[KnghtAzrael]

Raymond,
I agree with you on fitness limitations overall but some pre-existing conditions can be deal breakers.

Yes I can see how some limitations can be. While I was limited in the warm up exercises, I was still able to do all the techniques I was taught. It's also amazing what people can overcome. One of the best privilages I've had is training with one of my sensei's Aiki instructors, this man is incredible and continues to practice and teach despite both legs being in braces and needing crutches. I hope people keep an open mind with the limitations people may have because something might not be as limiting as they think.