Okinawan Karate/TSD Ranks

[rainesr]

I was reading an article and there was a list high ranking (9th and 10th Dan) Okinawan Karate instructors. Several of them were recognizable even to me, like Shinyu Gushi Sensei, Uechi Ryu.

I used to train Tang Soo Do and 9yth and 10th Dan were considered taboo, 9th Dan was said to be rare or egotistic (I have met a couple in TSD) and 10th Dan was supposedly for the deceased.

Is it normal for the Okinawan styles to use up to 10th Dan regularly?

I am curious why in Tang Soo Do these ranks were so frowned upon.


~Rob

[TonyU]

Is it normal for the Okinawan styles to use up to 10th Dan regularly?

Yes. These are normally delegated to the head of the system/association.

I am curious why in Tang Soo Do these ranks were so frowned upon.


~Rob

That, I can't answer.

[NoName29]

I was told that 10th Dan was awarded after death because it represents perfection. And no one is perfect in this life, we all have room for improvement and development.

[TonyU]

I was told that 10th Dan was awarded after death because it represents perfection. And no one is perfect in this life, we all have room for improvement and development.

Not in Okinawan karate.

[Webmaster]

Same in Judo. There certainly are not too many 9th and 10th Dans, but they do exist. However, I bet many did not know that Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, held no rank in his own art but was promoted to 12th Dan after his death by his senior students who were at that time running the Kodokan.

[kbarrett]

I think for the Korean martial art the feeling is that 10th dan is the sign of perfection like mentioned above, if I'm corect all this high dan ranking started with judo, somebody else can correct me if I'm wrong on that. I also think there was a time when ranks above 5th dan were rare at best, the dan ranking really started in Japan, before that Okinawan & Korean MA had no formal ranking system that I'm a ware of.

Ken

[RickMatz]

In the style of aikido that I used to study, a 6th dan was considered a shihan. He knew all the technical aspects of all the named techniques. 8th dan was considered full mastery.

Kendo no longer awards 10th dans. Here is a video of the last 10th dan.

[rainesr]

I actually found a quote from Hwang Kee stating that Tang Soo Do practitioners should not take tenth Dan as there is always more to learn.

As an American who doesn't understand Korean culture this seems like pseudo-humility. It also could just be the time period, Korea was establishing itself after Japanese rule, maybe Hwang Kee did this as another way of distancing TSD from Shotokan.

[TonyU]

I had an Okinawan 10th Dan once tell me "if you always consider yourself a beginner, you will always learn". I guess the rank never went to his head.
Rank, like anything else, is dependant on the style, association, and ultimately you. Rank doesn't define the person. The person defines the rank.

[kbarrett]

In TSD there are Kyo Sa Nim (Certified Instructor) which students below 4th Dan tested for and Sa Bom Nim (Certified Master Instructor) which students 4th Dan and above tested for. These Certificates are just as important as the rank certificate themselfs, because they certify that you are able to teach TSD to other students.

In Okinawan/Japanese MA wasn't there something like this, where teaching certificates where given instead of rank certificates, I thought that I read that somewhere once, somebody studying Okinawan/Japanese MA will have to help me out on this one.

[TonyU]

In TSD there are Kyo Sa Nim (Certified Instructor) which students below 4th Dan tested for and Sa Bom Nim (Certified Master Instructor) which students 4th Dan and above tested for. These Certificates are just as important as the rank certificate themselfs, because they certify that you are able to teach TSD to other students.

In Okinawan/Japanese MA wasn't there something like this, where teaching certificates where given instead of rank certificates, I thought that I read that somewhere once, somebody studying Okinawan/Japanese MA will have to help me out on this one.

Yes, in the koryu systems and some gendai they have the Menkyo system of certification. Menkyo kaiden would be the certificate that authorizes the person to teach the system.
In the Okinawan systems that I've been associated with they've also given out teaching certificates separate from rank. They've also given out dojo affilated certificates authorizing the dojo within the associations. For example we are a Shibu dojo under the Hombu dojo, or a dojo that reports directly to the head dojo. A school that would report to us would be called a Fuku Shibu dojo.

[rainesr]

I have been doing a lot of research about TSD, where it came from, and why I was taught certain things that seem to be taught differently elsewhere.

My interest in this thread was because I was taught things (about rank in this case) that didn't hold true for other arts. In this case what I was taught was accompanied by disdain for anyone who would hold the rank of 10th Dan and suspicious of holders of 9th Dan. After seeing some famously respected people in martial arts holding those ranks it prompted me to explore why I was taught what I was taught.

~Rob

[Nyuck3x]

This is the way I understand it. In most Okinawan systems, any rank above 4th dan is usually based on service to the organization. If you do not belong to one, then any rank above 4th dan has no meaning. A Menkyo Kaiden was presented to show full transmission in Japan but not Okinawa. Chibana Sensei bestowed Shihan certificates to recognize full transmission. This was irrespective of rank. He only recognized 5 people.

I do not belong to an organization nor do my teachers. They were presented their 4th dans from their Sensei before he passed away. I cannot advance any higher unless I join an organization. I really have no need to advance any higher. None of my students seem to care about rank. The only ones it impresses are those who don't know better and the superficial.

[RickMatz]

From the Wikipedia article on Shotokan Karate:

"... Master Gichin Funakoshi himself, never awarded a rank higher than Godan (5th degree black belt)."

[RickMatz]

In the Wikipidia article on Mitsusuke Harada:

"In 1956, Funakoshi awarded Harada the rank of 5th dan, which was then the highest rank in Shotokan karate.[8] He has kept the same rank to this day, and 5th dan is still the highest rank attainable in his organisation (the KDS).[8] In April 1957, Egami sent Harada a telegram to inform him that Funakoshi had died. In the period that followed, political troubles saw many of Funakoshi's senior students (including Harada) form the Shōtōkai group separate from the JKA.[8]"

[Nyuck3x]

Oshima Sensei also has kept his Godan from Funakoshi.

http://ska.org/about/tsutomu-ohshima/


"At the All-Japan Sandan Promotional in 1952 Master Funakoshi personally awarded Mr. Ohshima his sandan (third degree black belt) rank, while honoring him with the highest score of any participant. Also in 1952 he became the Captain of the Waseda University Karate Club, working with Master Funakoshi. In 1957 Mr. Ohshima also received his godan (fifth degree black belt) rank from Master Funakoshi, the highest rank awarded by Master Funakoshi and still the highest rank achievable in SKA."

[Storiale]

Any rank over 3rd degree is simply "time in grade." I've known more than a few that received their 2nd and 3rd degree simply because they taught at the school, administered some organization related to the school and the like. Not much improvement seen from 2nd to 4th and definitely not from 4th to 7th.