Why isn't kodokan judo considered koryu jujutsu?

**Mekugi** · 02-18-2012, 07:42

Here we go....I am playing devil's advocate...just so you all know.

My argument is that Kodokan Judo is a Koryu. This is why:
1) Several schools of Koryu Jujutsu went into the forming of the Judo kata.
2) Several Koryu Schools have undergone facelifts and have received additional kata, perhaps the majority of their current curriculum.
3) Kodokan Judo contains the kata of two Koryu Jujutsu: Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. Both of these are bonafide Koryu Jujutsu and Kano sensei had a full license in each.

More specifically:
The Kito Ryu that exists in the Kodokan looks pretty much identical to the school that is still active in Central Japan.

Examples:
My video...HQ...sorry this is in Kyoto, Shinkokai event....ignore the studs for the roof:
Kito Ryu May 4th Shimogamo Jinja - YouTube

This is the film from which are the stills are taken from in the book "Kodokan Judo" published by Kodansha:
Jigoro Kano Kito Ryu no Kata koshiki omote full version - YouTube

On ranking and transmission:
Kodokan Judo and Kito Ryu are the same school in many regards. Within their respective systems they have the same kata and a shared idealogy so therefor, they could be considered one in the same. It is fathomable to see how one school is just called "Kodokan Judo" while the other is named "Kito Ryu." The differences are in the name, the additional kata in the beginning levels of the Kodokan syllabus, along with the Kodokan's systematic and pragmatic approach. Kodokan Judo contains far more material to get through than it's partnered school of Kito Ryu because generally, only upper level teachers get to study the true kata of the ryu (something that many martial arts call "hiden" or "oku" etc.). Both the Kodokan and Kito ryu have direct links in lineage, tradition, techniques and are therefore equal in authenticity. In the Kodokan, regardless of the enormous field of study that is before the Kito Ryu kata, the true secrets are a Koryu Jujutsu tradition. As for proper and traditional ranking in Koryu Jujutsu schools not corresponding with Kodokan Judo's dan system, it is important to remember that the number of ranking systems used for all the existing Koryu Jujutsu schools at the time were too varied to account for. Generally the old fashioned schools have their own ranking systems that may or may not correspond to one another. This is the case today for Koryu Jujutsu and it was most doubly so in Jigoro Kano's time. There were so many variables that make up the ranking systems within the individual schools, it seemed logical for Dr. Kano to standardize his method of promotion and rank in a way that would assure it could be passed to the students properly. Dr. Kano therefore adapted a dan-i system for his Judo. It was his prerogative and it was his answer to the Koryu Jujutsu system for the 19th century and the modern world.

OK...tell me what you think. Insane? Probably...but surely fun!

**Tripitaka of AA** · 02-18-2012, 07:50

why? .. because everybody finally got their heads around what is and what isn't, and to mess with the black and white would cause cerebral haemorrhage.

**Tripitaka of AA** · 02-18-2012, 07:53

You make an interesting case for the discussion Russ. Without the means to offer rebuttal, I shall observe the ensuing debate with interest. I would presume that there will at some point be a comment along the lines of "what is or isn't koryu, isn't all that relevant really". But that would be a cop-out and end the discussion, wouldn't it. I hope that others can offer a more learned and creative response to your assertion.

**Mekugi** · 02-18-2012, 13:03

I hope so!! We'll see!!

**Abbax8** · 02-18-2012, 14:13

When I asked as a 14 year old what the difference was between Judo and Jujitsu I was told by a high Dan, Jujitsu is just dirty Judo. PLacement of the foot in Tomoe-Nage, don't worry about breaking uke's leg in Tai-Otoshi, etc. Plus all the wonderful strikes, which are in Judo.

Actually Russ, I like your arguement and say, yeah, we are Koryu.

Dennis

**Mekugi** · 02-18-2012, 22:29

But Kodokan Judo is not considered a Koryu Jujutsu. It blended techniques and was formed in late 19th and early 20th century and thusly a modern age or "Gendai" martial art.

**Abbax8** · 02-19-2012, 15:28

I know Russ, I'm just syaing I agree with your logic. I also think that in the big picture there's a lot of hyperventilating over Ancient/Modern styles. In the end, there's only son many ways to lock a joint, hit a target , choke or throw a body.

Dennis

**RickMatz** · 02-19-2012, 20:06

Originally Posted by Abbax8

I know Russ, I'm just syaing I agree with your logic. I also think that in the big picture there's a lot of hyperventilating over Ancient/Modern styles. In the end, there's only son many ways to lock a joint, hit a target , choke or throw a body.

Dennis

... and every "ancient" or "traditional" style was at one time, the new guy on the block.

**CEB** · 06-20-2012, 15:59

I don't know anything but for what it is worth I always felt one of the major demarcations between gendai budo and koryu is the way the arts were administered.

In koryu the schools were typically controlled and ran by families or individuals and in gendai budo martial arts were administered by committees, with Kendo and Judo being among the first.

But that is just me.

**Mekugi** · 06-22-2012, 23:22

That's a good point Ed.

My question: What about Yukimitsu Kano?
He's was the president of the Kodokan. That's Jigoro Kano's great grandson. Does that count? This just recently changed....

April 1 saw the induction of a new Judo head in Japan. Mr. Yukimitsu Kano, grandson of Judo founder Jigoro Kano, retired from the posts of President of the All Japan Judo Federation(AJJF) and President of the Kodokan. He was succeeded by his close collaborator Mr. Haruki Uemura. It is the first time since Judo’s founding some 130 years ago that someone from outside the Kano family assumed the leadership. This has drawn attention at home and abroad.

From the VOJ website.....http://www.judo-voj.com/contents/harukiuemura.html

**CEB** · 06-25-2012, 11:33

I didn't realize the Kano family kept such an influence on the Kodokan all these years. They have the same sort on going relationship with Judo the Ueshiba family has with the Aikikai.

**Mekugi** · 06-25-2012, 11:39

Right!? Not a lot realize that (moreover...care). Nepotism in Japan...I swear!

**Webmaster** · 06-25-2012, 14:11

Considering that one of the criteria used for defining a Koryu art versus a modern Budo art is the family succession thing, yet Judo and Aikido are not considered Koryu, I would think that the other criteria would need to be emphasized over family succession. Family succession is simply a part of the Japanese culture and not necessarily a Koryu martial art thing. I am sure that there are many of examples of businesses, companies, clubs, etc throughout Japan that have been passed down from one generation to the next.

Still, it's cool that there is still a connection to the Kano family in Judo.

**Mekugi** · 06-26-2012, 08:16

The boss hit it on the head.

Nepotism is VERY strong on planet Japan, many times stronger than reason
Keeping businesses (Toyota, for example) and arts in the family (my wife's family are carpenters, 300 years and going- they use the soke system for their business...) is a key cultural point. Completely valid arguments for and against it can be made but in the end it's all about cultural norms.

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**Abbax8** · 06-26-2012, 12:34

Originally Posted by Mekugi

The boss hit it on the head.

Nepotism is VERY strong on planet Japan, many times stronger than reason
Keeping businesses (Toyota, for example) and arts in the family (my wife's family are carpenters, 300 years and going- they use the soke system for their business...) is a key cultural point. Completely valid arguments for and against it can be made but in the end it's all about cultural norms.

---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?s5e0r2

I have nothing against nepotism in a family run business. If I risk my money, expend my labor in building a business, bring my kids into the business, then leave it to them, that is my decision alone.

Dennis

**Ramirez** · 06-26-2012, 19:47

Originally Posted by Abbax8

I have nothing against nepotism in a family run business. If I risk my money, expend my labor in building a business, bring my kids into the business, then leave it to them, that is my decision alone.

Dennis

exactly, a proprietor can do whatever he wants....a publicly owned company is run by managers...that is a different story.