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  1. #1
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    Russ Ebert
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    Default Looking for help

    I've re-entered Judo training. Long story short- these guys are younger, many heavier and much stronger than I am now. I need help with LEGAL techniques for: stiff arms and people scooting in between my legs to throw (these kids are much faster and shorter, they tuck in with throws right on my legs). These brats (love 'em) train 5 days a week and are in SUPER condition. Advice greatly appreciated, enhanced with video if applicable.
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  2. #2
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    There are tons of videos on the 'net on how to get around a stiff arm, but here is a pretty good one.

    http://superjudo.tv/defeating-a-stiff-arm-defense/

    Are you also dealing with them bending over? A couple ways to deal with that in this video too.

    With regard to them getting in between your legs, I'd have to see how they are doing it, but if they are just charging up the middle, try countering with your own ashi waza. If they are doing a forward throw like seoi-nage and dropping right at your ankles, try something simple like pancaking to stop it before they can get under you. If they are under you and start to turn you over, you're screwed. Not really, but it's a little harder. If they catch you cold, say with a right side throw down at your legs, put your left hand on his obi and push his hips down & forward and then try and step/scoot around the throw. Sorry, no video for that I can find right now.
    Robert M. Carver
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  3. #3
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    One more thing about stiff arms. Stiff arms are really only there to counter forward and backward motion. However, there are more directions in Judo than forward and backward.
    Robert M. Carver
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    "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." – Ayn Rand

    “In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” - George Orwell

    "A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a gun is a subject."

    "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress (12 August 1974)

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Abbax8's Avatar
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    O-Guruma is a good throw against stiff arms. Like all things it takes practice. I used a cross step with my left foot, spin as soon as the foot touches, placing my right leg across them and throw with a right side O-Guruma.

    Dennis
    Only a Cowardly Loser hurts an innocent, defenseless person.

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  5. #5
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    Default

    Just got a chance to reply now- checking this out..will undoubtably have questions...if you don't mind!!
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  6. #6
    Super Moderator Abbax8's Avatar
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    Default This is So Evil

    Just do what this guy does


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcpLisR8W8

    Check out his foot position at 18 seconds. His left foot is near uke's left foot, he spins and throws.

    I really don't think there's a better demonstrator out there!

    Dennis
    Last edited by Abbax8; 04-27-2012 at 20:23.
    Only a Cowardly Loser hurts an innocent, defenseless person.

    Dennis P. McGeehan

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Abbax8's Avatar
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    Russ,
    When they stiff arm you they are pushing into you. The key is to slip the stiff arm off your chest with a pivoting of your body. You don't nee to be in real close. You draw them in as you finish your turn and stretch your leg out, continuing to drive them forward.

    So much for internet judo lessons.

    Dennis
    Only a Cowardly Loser hurts an innocent, defenseless person.

    Dennis P. McGeehan

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Abbax8's Avatar
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    This is a standard entry, but note the space between tori and uke.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen

    I often say that O-Guruma is tailor made for a stiff arm defense.

    Dennis
    Last edited by Abbax8; 04-27-2012 at 10:50.
    Only a Cowardly Loser hurts an innocent, defenseless person.

    Dennis P. McGeehan

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Tripitaka of AA's Avatar
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    Default

    Dennis, is there a link for post #6, or does it refer to a previous clip?
    David Noble
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  10. #10
    Super Moderator Abbax8's Avatar
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    Sorry David, my brain took an unannounced break.

    I added the link and also put it here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcpLisR8W8

    Dennis
    Only a Cowardly Loser hurts an innocent, defenseless person.

    Dennis P. McGeehan

  11. #11
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    Default

    Thanks Dennis
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988) Retired

    The lone Kenshi beats the giant drum, increasing in tempo as he builds to a crescendo - "Yaaaaah!" - Bang!...
    Rei, naore. Time to begin.

  12. #12
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    Default

    This is the thing: These little monkeys are shorter than I am, stronger and faster. Something like Oguruma takes "too long " for me to get below their center of gravity as they slide off and pop me back up (or I risk a leg sweep, totally vulnerable). The only place I am any good with these guys is on the ground, they are just FAST as lightening and strong enough to pull me down. I am used to sutemi so this is where I am okay....but they get an "ippon" on me before I have a chance to do anything about it. Very interesting and frustrating. It's fun....but aggravating. So maybe I need to work on my speed of entry?
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbax8 View Post
    Just do what this guy does


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcpLisR8W8

    Check out his foot position at 18 seconds. His left foot is near uke's left foot, he spins and throws.

    I really don't think there's a better demonstrator out there!

    Dennis
    Yeah...I WANT TO DO THAT. Seriously...I want to be Mifune. I want to fly too....
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbax8 View Post
    This is a standard entry, but note the space between tori and uke.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen

    I often say that O-Guruma is tailor made for a stiff arm defense.

    Dennis
    This one I may be able to pull off....I just need to get down. Tall guy problems.
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbax8 View Post
    Russ,
    When they stiff arm you they are pushing into you. The key is to slip the stiff arm off your chest with a pivoting of your body. You don't nee to be in real close. You draw them in as you finish your turn and stretch your leg out, continuing to drive them forward.

    So much for internet judo lessons.

    Dennis
    LOL!
    Ok what is going on:

    They aren't pushing, they are using the arm to keep me from coming in because of my height advantage. I can arch their backs just by pulling them tight to my chest. These clever monkeys (who I dearly love) are using the arm as a wedge, not pushing, but waiting for me to push onto that arm and then dropping down. Pretty clever, it's obvious they have been taught to do that for competition. That being said I could easily catch that arm in a bar, but I can only stay standing with it (no dragging them to the ground, that is immediate hansoku- this is young adult level competition so they don't go for that). Essentially what I have been doing with them is letting them throw me and pulling them into osaekomi. They are catching on quickly though...I caught them working against a pull...my time is limited here . I am actually happy to say that.
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  16. #16
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    Something I left out: (sorry, I am unclear sometimes)

    The stiff arm I am talking about is HIGH on the collar. Not at the chest level. The aren't bending. They are using it as a feeler to initiate a drop- that is: No pushing, just like a sensor they use to activate their drop to my legs. From their they bend the arm immediately and pull down. I have no problem breaking this grip, but they just keep going for it and are skilled at working around it. I can stall until they start going for the legs, then it is a "kicking" game until they can get back to the stiff arm.

    The throw is actually very light and easy to take, it's like they immediatly turn into a pill bug as soon as I come in.
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Webmaster View Post
    If they are under you and start to turn you over, you're screwed. Not really, but it's a little harder. If they catch you cold, say with a right side throw down at your legs, put your left hand on his obi and push his hips down & forward and then try and step/scoot around the throw. Sorry, no video for that I can find right now.
    This is it right here. Not even a moment to sprawl down. I am talking lightening quick because of the height I have. I think I need to get a hand ready to place at the hips. I am used to guys much my own height, these are short, heavy and FAST little men who seem to be fearless and are adapting quickly to me. This is a good thing for them, but a very bad thing for me.
    Russ Ebert
    The narcissism of small differences is especially true in the martial arts.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post
    This is it right here. Not even a moment to sprawl down. I am talking lightening quick because of the height I have. I think I need to get a hand ready to place at the hips. I am used to guys much my own height, these are short, heavy and FAST little men who seem to be fearless and are adapting quickly to me. This is a good thing for them, but a very bad thing for me.
    Okay, this description helps a bit more. If they are using a high grip, then they are really hoping to only retard your forward attacking movement and as you said, use it as a sensor. You should still be able to use pulling, lateral and off-angle attacks.

    When they have their hand up high, the best thing you can do is to turn your body like a set of vertical blinds, pulling at the same time and letting them slip past you. Once you have gotten past them, I'd use Sode Makikomi just like in the first video I linked. The advantage of this throw is since you are taller you don't have to get below their center of gravity.

    Also, enter with your knees already bent so you don't have to get lower once you are already in. You can also throw a little flare into your makikomi with a little Harai action. Another thing you can try to is change your initial angle to approach from the opposite side of the arm they normally reach with the high grip with. So if they are reaching with their right hand, stay to their left so they have to reach across their body to grip.

    Consider also trying to break their high grip the same way you would with Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi, but instead of lifting the arm straight up, push it across your body (to the inside) while shifting your hip (on the same side) in. From there, uchi mata them into next week.

    Also, try something a little unorthodox like the Arm Drag. See the below video. Once you pull them through, you use ura nage if you want to be mean, or you can be a little nice and use tani otoshi. Try also to do your arm drag as they are initiating their grip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3o6QjvRQ2U

    Finally, if they take a high grip and their arm shifts past your shoulder or around your head, pick their legs up and dump them on their head. Per IJF rules, the moment their hand extends past your shoulder/head, leg attacks are legal.

    Anyway, hope this help.
    Robert M. Carver
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  19. #19
    Administrator and Benevolent Dictator Webmaster's Avatar
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    So Russ, I was meaning to ask, but what's up with the Judo? Your Koryu buddies aren't going to start looking down their noses and disown you or something?
    Robert M. Carver
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    "A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a gun is a subject."

    "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress (12 August 1974)

  20. #20
    Administrator and Benevolent Dictator Webmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post
    This is it right here. Not even a moment to sprawl down. I am talking lightening quick because of the height I have. I think I need to get a hand ready to place at the hips. I am used to guys much my own height, these are short, heavy and FAST little men who seem to be fearless and are adapting quickly to me. This is a good thing for them, but a very bad thing for me.
    Russ, one thing I forgot was to mention about blocking their throw, but not just with the hands. You seem to indicate that you are having trouble blocking them with the hand because you can't get your hand down on time? If that is the case, then you also need to be blocking with your hips. When they enter into their throw, you immediately bend your knees, push your hips out and knee out, or basically assume the defensive posture (Jigo hontai). By using your hips, already down at the level he dropping to (or even lower), you change the relationship of his hips to yours. For instance, if they do a right-side throw and I'll assume you are in a mirrored stance to his (both with the right foot forward most of the time), you would suddenly bend the knees to get a lower center of gravity than he was expecting when he attacked, drive your right hip forward along with the leg and "hip check" them on their right side or middle. This will cause their hips to be pushed forward and actually break their balance. Keep your hands in place on their Judogi and throw them to the rear with Tani Otoshi or a nice yoko sutemi. Problem solved.

    BTW even as a young in shape twenty-something Marine playing Judo in Japan/Okinawa (and other countries in the region), they really do have some blazingly fast Judoka in their clubs. Just remember that they are initiating movement, you are reacting. You're always going to be at somewhat of a disadvantage.
    Robert M. Carver
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    "A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a gun is a subject."

    "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress (12 August 1974)

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