The Situation in Syria

[Jonathan Randall]

I'm no fan of Assad and was even less so of his brutal father, but the destabilization of Syria is almost certain to add one more disaster to a region already plagued by religious extremism and radical political parties and armed factions:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/heavy-fight...080343616.html

I think the downing of a Turkish jet by Syria is an ominous portent. Personally, I don't see Turkey -- a Nato nation -- putting up with much of this.

I fear the West, including the Obama Regime, is helping to provoke, fund and arm this fighting -- and Russia is making it worse with their shipping of sophisticated weapons to the thugs in Damascus.

Do you think a Romney Admin. would do this better? It is hard to imagine a worse mess of Middle East politics than we have seen by the Obama Admin. over the past few years. It almost seems as if he has won the war for Osama Bin Laden (toppling secular regimes and empowering religious extremists).

Thoughts?

[Erik]

Has Romney commented about Syria? I haven't heard anything (yet).

Syria is a bad, bad place. I can see Tunisians, Lybians, and Egyptians possibly rebelling against Islamist gov'ts in the next few years (maybe) but Syria is as messed up as possible. And all those weapons and cash smuggled in from Iraq.

I had a pal in a NATO mission just watching all those vehicles (and inspecting some) come rolling right in when the US invaded....

Yeah, Syria looks like a nightmare case, minus WMDs (for now).

I'm curious about that Turkish plane, though.

[CEB]

The only stable force in that region is the Turks. But they aint good guys either per se.

There aint no good guy regimes in that region. Just guys who happen to be currently on top.

10-15 years ago if I as a Westerner had to live somewhere in that region Damascas or Amman would not have been a bad choice. But I suppose Damascas life has gone to Hell now.

[Erik]

Beirut used to be the garden spot of the region, very international, thriving, peaceful. Then came Israel and her enemies....

[Webmaster]

Then came Israel and her enemies....

Actually that is quite misleading. It was not Israel that wrecked Lebanon, it was Israel's enemies. Israel is more than content to stay within its borders, but it's enemies surround it on all sides and are always trying to undermine its existence. If folks didn't invade Israel, or shoot missiles, rockets and artillery at Israeli cities, Israel would not have a need to go kick their butt. Remember that Israel has never started a fight with any of its neighbors, but they sure as hell know how to finish it.

[CEB]

It is a tough situation. Old cultures have old memories. There was no Jewish state in the Palestine region after 135 AD. Those Israeli borders that Isreal is content to stay within were created from something. It is going to take a long time for this to work itself out. This conflict has only begun. Maybe with in a century everyone will be able to come to terms with political structure in Palenstine. .... maybe not.

I have friends who still hold a grudge with the western Catholics for attacking the Churches in the east during the 4th crusade and sacking it's cities and pilliaging it's churches and stealing holy relics and taking them back to Europe. That was only in 1204 I believe. Old cultures have old memories.

[Erik]

...Israel has never started a fight with any of its neighbors....

Sure, minus the invasion (and massacre) in Lebanon and Sinai, but they did displace an entire population by force (I don't care if they trace their culture to a patch of land, I certainly don't have the right to take back my grandparents' house in Sacramento and they're actually direct blood relatives, not abstract cultural antecedents), grow and keep growing over other peoples' homes... that's why they have enemies, disgusting and God-awful as Syria, Hezbollah, PLO and the others are.

Oh, and the killing of Americans and framing the PLO for it. And the destruction of the USS Liberty. Israel is not a friend to us.

In regards to Syria, Israel will be getting theirs within a generation. Egypt has been kept in check by US aid ($3 bn/year, if I remember), Jordan by favoring a good relationship with the US, Lebanon and Syria due to Israeli occupation of a buffer zone. All that may change. Then Israel is in for it and so are we if we spend the $$$ and lives trying to take increased pressure off of them.

Very sad since there are plenty of peaceful, non-racist humanist Israelis who were born there (did not decide to come as colonists) and have no other home.

[Webmaster]

Erik, I know that you are married into a Muslim family, but seriously you need to tell the truth, the whole truth.

The Israelis invaded Lebanon because the Arabs were using it to launch rockets and artillery at Israeli cities. They were also launching cross-border terrorism strikes in Israel from Lebanese soil. What, killing Jewish children isn't offensive to you? How about the Sinai? I seem to recall that Israel occupied it when after they were attacked by Egypt. From Wikipedia (such as it is):

"In 1978, Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty in which Israel agreed to withdraw from the entirety of Sinai. Israel subsequently withdrew in several stages, ending in 1982. The Israeli pull-out involved dismantling almost all Israeli settlements, including the settlement of Yamit in north-eastern Sinai. The exception was the coastal city of Sharm el-Sheikh, which the Israelis had renamed as Ofira during the period of their occupation. The Treaty allows monitoring of Sinai by the Multinational Force and Observers, and limits the number of Egyptian military forces in the peninsula."

Oh and it was the Muslim wackjobs that took over Lebanon with the aid of Iran and Syria that turned Lebanon into a shithole.

[Erik]

My Muslim relatives are more sympathetic to Israel than I am, believe it or not. I think my antipathy comes from being raised Jewish yet not feeling like one of them so I became more of a humanist, not favoring the self-proclaimed "God's chosen people" over anyone else.

You're right, in those cases Israel was retaliating for attacks made into the territory they had taken by force. And believe me, they've murdered and mutilated plenty of native children (mostly with US, UK, and French supplied weapons), completely leveled homes and villages so the natives cannot say "this was my house" and so on.

I see the Arab attacks as counter-attacks to being invaded, especially nasty ones due to their manner of war, but the natives did not start this. Had the Israelis remained where they were born this would be a non-issue.

They should have claimed Bavaria and made Berchtesgaden (a Nazi party stronghold near Eagle's Nest) their capital city. That would have been more just for everyone (and a sweet irony).

[Webmaster]

So you are a self-loathing Jew? Typical...

Sorry, but Israel didn't take their land by force, it was handed to them by UN resolution. If there is anyone to blame, blame the UN.

[Erik]

I'm a content Christian.

But heck, I'll give you my neighbor's house, the one with the sound studio in the garage (heck, why not?), and it's all yours. Have at it, it's all yours.

Don't blame me when the family living there isn't happy about this. And when you shoot them and claim it was self-defense don't expect me to agree.

(I know you wouldn't really do such a thing to anyone, Robert. I'm just making a point.)

[Webmaster]

(I know you wouldn't really do such a thing to anyone, Robert. I'm just making a point.)

What point is that? Remember that Palestine was British territory and they chose to allow the UN to create a Jewish state on their territory. So thanks to the UN, those folks that were displaced by the creation of Israel became squatters in their own land. So please focus your hatred where it is deserved. If you were homeless and some extra-governmental group came along and offered you someone else's home, you'd take it. After all, as a good liberal, government knows best, right?

[Erik]

So, the Brits occupied Palestine after taking it from the Turks. Then gave it to a bunch of people living in Europe and Asia.

I guess I could give my neighbor's house to Dave or Eliz (just random examples) and then they can give it to you. You can move in and shoot the family living there as they try to repel you.

Not favoring one side over the other does not make me a hater. Favoring one side of vicious, violent, self-righteous people who have been winning, largely thanks to our tax money, over the other does make someone a hater.

Now, the human rights issue that came to a head in the 1930s-1940s is a very, very valid discussion but creating Israel on top of someone else's home (where human beings actually live, not just dream, pray, and sing about it) is not a moral solution. Only a hater would think so.

[Webmaster]

I did not say that the Brits handing over Palestine was right or even moral, but it is legal, and that's the point. You cannot legally hand over that which does not belong to you (like your neighbor's house) to someone and have them hand it to me. That's not legal. On the other hand, the resolution that created Israel was legal because it was done by a legal entity in the proper legal fashion as established by international treaty. Legal does not necessarily equal moral. However, we cannot go back in time and argue against the creation of Israel. It's done... finished, complete. So calling the Arab attacks on Israeli citizens a "counter-attack" or self-defense is ludicrous. On the other hand, the Israelis have stuck their hand out in peace many times, and each time they've gotten bitten. With this history and enemy states that surround you and call for your destruction, you get a more militant Jewish state, and one that will do whatever it takes to protect itself.

[Erik]

So... is the UN a legal institution? Are their actions legal? When it comes to international relations, there is no central legal body (despite what the Dutch working in the Hague like to think). The strong countries (like France, UK, US, etc.) can decide and enforce what they think is legal only because they (we) have the power to do so.

I don't think the Ottomans (the previous legal gov't of Palestine) or the natives would recognize the European and Asian colonial invasion as a legal move. The term is totally irrelevant.

Anyway, about Syria, very bad for Israel, unless they (with our tax money) manage to totally compromise whatever gov't exists after this (likely) revolution. Otherwise, they're toast.

[Webmaster]

I am sorry to say so, but yes, the UN is a legal institution as established by international treaty. Yes, their actions to do what they did with the British territory of Palestine, with the consent of the Brits (who were the legal government of that area) are entirely legal.

I also think that there are a lot of laws on the books that I don't like, but they are legal too.

[Jonathan Randall]

In regards to Syria, Israel will be getting theirs within a generation. Egypt has been kept in check by US aid ($3 bn/year, if I remember), Jordan by favoring a good relationship with the US, Lebanon and Syria due to Israeli occupation of a buffer zone. All that may change. Then Israel is in for it and so are we if we spend the $$$ and lives trying to take increased pressure off of them.

Very sad since there are plenty of peaceful, non-racist humanist Israelis who were born there (did not decide to come as colonists) and have no other home.

Both Egypt and Israel have received Western (i.e., American) largesse in exchange for keeping the peace between them. That was the point of the thread. 40 years of Western effort at stabilization have been chucked out the window in exchange for support of Arab Springs that are putting muslim extremists into power in places like Egypt.

The careful balance of power and factions done - with the help and cooperation of PAST U.S. Administrations - that has allowed a violent, nearly hopeless area to avoid regional war after regional war, religious war after religious war, tribal warfare after tribal warfare, is now gone. Personally, I think these destabilizations (Egypt, North Africa, Syria, etc.) done in the name of "democracy" are goint to result in even greater bloodshed and tyranny than the dysfunctional, but semi-working system they replaced.

Though he is now dead, Bin Laden is winning his war. How can he not be when we're involved in a circular firing squad here?

As to Lebanon: we took large portions of Mexico from the Mexicans in the past (1848 ring a bel?l). Just how many missiles would you allow Mexico to fire into American cities without retaliating? How about ONE? One missile attack upon American cities done with the knowledge and consent of the Mexican government would immediately result in ONE war.

My big wonder here, is will Romney be better in Mid-East Policy? It is hard to imagine anyone doing worse than the past few years.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I've enjoyed this thread muchly. Some astute observations and some depressing but logical extrapolation. So me and the Mrs reckon it's time to drop a big bomb on the whole lot, what say you?

[CEB]

No! There are a lot of good Orthodox Christians still living in those Islam nations.

[Jonathan Randall]

No! There are a lot of good Orthodox Christians still living in those Islam nations.

Beat me to it!

The Syrian Christians are in a particularly bad spot right now - thanks to the "pro-democracy" destabilization of the regime taking place.

While I could personally do without the leadership of the Coptic Church in Egypt, I do not want to see any come to harm.

As to Hezbollah, let Israel clean them out of the hills. Problem is that everytime the Israeli Armed Forces come close to accomplishing that objective, the International Community pulls them back. So, in the name of peace, the U.N. condemns the people of Lebanon and Israel to a major war every decade or so. That's what happens when one side or the other isn't allowed to win.

Also, now, instead of having ONE bad guy with ONE address (to send cruise missiles into), we now have multiple violent factions in places like Libya and Syria. Good job. And I thought President Bush was bad... at least until the final 2 1/2 years in office when that Admin. actually did a pretty good job with a bad hand of cards.

The Obama Admin., as well as the European Community leadership, has been an unmitigated disaster for the Mideast.