Knife as self-defense tool

[Erik]

That's what I was thinking, too, Cliff, but I'm that guy with the FMA practice and didn't want to risk suffering from that Dunning-Kruger effect that Tony mentioned.

Funny thing, though - when doing free sparring with my dear beloved meathead buddies, we've practiced with shoes and a rigid training knife. Getting that knife kicked out of one's hand (like on the old Kung Fu show with that goofball David Caradine) actually happened sometimes. I can see a TKD person trying that kind of thing.

It's easy enough to learn how not to let it happen, but I was glad for the lesson.

[cejames]

I really don't know how to put this kindly, but someone with about six months training in kali could probably take a pocket knife and kill every TKD black belt I have ever met.

People like Leo Gaje would kill them three at a time.

Hi, Cliff: Come on .... tell us how you really feel

[Jonathan Randall]

I really don't know how to put this kindly, but someone with about six months training in kali could probably take a pocket knife and kill every TKD black belt I have ever met.

People like Leo Gaje would kill them three at a time.

One of my instructors trained under Leo Gaje, and I was, therefore, taught to seriously respect what a knife can do. He's a scary guy!

[Tony Dismukes]

With a relatively short period of training, a knife can be a devastating weapon for ending a fight.

It's usefulness as a self-defense tool is another matter. The question is, how likely are you to end up in a self-defense scenario where escalating to lethal force is a good idea? I've lived 48 years without ever encountering a situation where employing lethal force would have improved matters. (I have been in circumstances where deploying a lethal weapon would have made things much worse.)

There are some people whose living circumstances or professions make them likely to encounter circumstances where lethal force is appropriate. If you are one of those people, then a knife may be an appropriate tool. If so, be sure to practice accessing and deploying it under stress as well as weapon retention methods. There's no point in carrying a deadly weapon if you can't draw it in time or keep your attacker from taking it away from you.

[gmtkd]

With a relatively short period of training, a knife can be a devastating weapon for ending a fight.

It's usefulness as a self-defense tool is another matter.

Thank you Tony for being the only person who seems to understand what I meant by my question. I mean no disrespect to the others. I'm sure I did not do a good enough job of explaining the issue I wanted advice on. Heck some of you didn't even seem to know I was asking for advice but rather call me an idiot for not already knowing your opinions and agreeing with them.

I am not trying to give martial arts people advice about self-defense, they all think they know everything already
It's just that I hear from average regular non-trained people that they carry pocket knives thinking they might use them for self-defense. I know a person trained in how to use a knife can do great damage with one (as someone tried to explain with graphic video links).
When I say "self-defense" I don't mean "damage an attacker." I mean get safe from a large variety of dangers (including both attacks that start with arguments and attacks that take one by surprise) in the easiest way possible without getting into legal trouble.

So let me try rephrasing my question:
Do you members of budoseek feel like carrying a knife increases one's ability to protect themselves and stay out of trouble? Why or why not? Does your answer depend on how much training the person has in using a knife to harm someone?

(I realize that at least one of you has already said you believe any weapon is bad to carry for self-defense without sufficient training)

[Jonathan Randall]

Thank you Tony for being the only person who seems to understand what I meant by my question. I mean no disrespect to the others. I'm sure I did not do a good enough job of explaining the issue I wanted advice on. Heck some of you didn't even seem to know I was asking for advice but rather call me an idiot for not already knowing your opinions and agreeing with them.


When I say "self-defense" I don't mean "damage an attacker." I mean get safe from a large variety of dangers (including both attacks that start with arguments and attacks that take one by surprise) in the easiest way possible without getting into legal trouble.

So let me try rephrasing my question:
Do you members of budoseek feel like carrying a knife increases one's ability to protect themselves and stay out of trouble? Why or why not? Does your answer depend on how much training the person has in using a knife to harm someone?

I do not think you are an idiot. To the contrary, I admire your perseverance in achieving an expert level in WTF TKD and would love for you to share your expertise in the KMA forums. It is simply that I (and others) think you are on the wrong track regarding self-defence: in some areas dangerously so. This group can be very direct (blunt) with those teaching what they appear to not know, themselves. What's that old adage about "if you can't stand the heat..."?

As to a knife carry: there are those who have used it to slash away at attackers and escape from grabs and lunges. My first concern would be the emotional stability, confidence and competence of the person so armed. Training is only one component. Could they be aggressive enough to persevere, yet not cross the line into felony, themselves? Damn hard question to answer.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Tactically, knives have a role.

Culturally, knives are a problem. Our culture views knives as the weapon of bad guys. They should be saved for deadly force situations only. You are really better off legally with a gun in most places.

[Harlan]

Can you suggest a good book on the subject of gun defense?

[Jonathan Randall]

Tactically, knives have a role.

Culturally, knives are a problem. Our culture views knives as the weapon of bad guys. They should be saved for deadly force situations only. You are really better off legally with a gun in most places.

GMTKD,

Listen to him.

[sean_stonehart]

Culturally, knives are a problem. Our culture views knives as the weapon of bad guys. They should be saved for deadly force situations only. You are really better off legally with a gun in most places.

Simply brilliant! I have not heard it put that way before in this context.

[CEB]

I think it was few years ago Some of the guys in the LEO forum were talking about tactical knives. I was like WTF?

So I asked Sensei and a couple of guys at the dojo if they used knives on the jobs. Theye said sure knives are necessary tools. Sensei said he has had to use knives to cut seat belts to extract people out of cars. Things often need to be cut.

I asked him if he ever used a knife in a fight and he said Hell No! If local news got a hold of a story of a cop stabbing someone regardless of the circumstances they would have a field day. He said you were much better off shooting someone. This was pretty much what I expected.

[andy.m]

Alright , being in Britain, we look at things very differently. We CANNOT carry in weapon of any type, for use in self defense (out side security personnel etc) . To do so is to premeditate the act of using it. It does not matter what the attackers intent, numbers, motivation are, you are responsible for planning (premeditatedly) causing injury to the attacker. You will be legally held responsible for these injuries, as they are beyond 'reasonable force'. The legal yard stick.
I know the definition of 'reasonable force' is very different, with guns etc in the States, as Sensei Hargrave points out, even the weapon loving U.S., the knife is despised and looked down on. And your target group, the untrained, may like the idea of something other than a gun. But , as with any weapon.....

" These things art worth sh*t if you don't use 'em" : Freeby and the Bean

Having a weapon in a situation, drawing to end the situation, but failing to use it, WILL make the situation , far far worse. You have escalated the situation, with out the will to end it. Escalated via the very tool carried to end it. You have challenged, threatened, the attacker : things will spiral out of control very quickly !

[Erik]

Yes and no, Andrew. I took a tiny slash from a blade while in Austria (working security). I got kinda mad, told the guy with the knife that he was a dead man, and he ran off. Nothing went like I had ever imagined it - injury was trivial, I never saw the knife until after it was used, he got scared and ran off, etc.

I stayed at my post, putting paper towels on the little gash and pulling down my rolled sleeve over it to keep the towel in place. I was annoyed that it wasn't even worth a good story (but glad, too!)

Question for you, Mate. Do people feel safe walking around in the UK?

I hear heaps of stories about assaults by thugs, including home break-ins that are run with military efficiently (like a guy counting down the clock, etc.). Not sure if these are just stories.

(This is especially interesting to me since my totally adorable babiest baby sister is moving to London soon for a new job.)

[andy.m]

Question for you, Mate. Do people feel safe walking around in the UK?

Don't worry , it's no were near as bad as it's made out. We 'shout and ball' a lot, because we do see a change for the worse, but the scale is nothing like that in the States. Because we see the slide, finally the people themselves are involved. We're feed up with the establishments assurances. Yes, the situation now is the US worry : only the bad guys are armed ! But, chaos hasn't ensued and now anyone found with a weapon is locked up. The riots were something completely different and probably wont happen again.

[De_Franza]

Any weapon or tool is useless if you do not have any training in it.

THIS
(10 characters)

[rainesr]

I beg to differ about knives. Supposing it is a decent one for fighting (not like my little Opinel slimline), it doesn't take much training to just try to stick it in a person as many times as possible.

Rory, apparently, does a drill where he briefs someone to do just that in an ambush and it's apparently very difficult to defend against. That's just 10 seconds of martial arts training with a knife.

I meant to reply to this post earlier, but I forgot.

I think training is very important.

I am curious if the Rory Miller scenario really addresses self defense at all. A person planning an unexpected attack with a knife picks the most suitable time, the most suitable place, they have mentally committed to using a knife, and if they don't have it drawn they are prepared to draw it. I think this scenario only takes a few minutes of training.

On the other side of the coin you have a person (untrained) carrying a knife. Lets say this person gets jumped.

Since they don't carry a knife, they are not used to drawing a knife, they are probably rattled from being hit, scared, and maybe even knocked down. What are the probable outcomes?

1. Maybe one is they never reach for the knife because it is foreign to them. They either fight open hand, run, or lose.

2. They reach for the knife and focus so much on drawing it they lose before they have a chance to draw it.

3. They reach for the knife draw it and fall on it or cut themselves badly.

4. They manage to draw it only to get it taken away because they were not prepared to use it.

Also someone trained with a knife may have the sense/training to use open hands until an appropriate (not dangerous to themselves) time to draw the knife occurs.

Where do you carry the knife for best access? I prefer appendix carry. Would an untrained person even think of that, or would it be in a pocket under an iPhone?

I was thinking back to basic training and how that first morning people getting yelled at by someone they knew would not hurt them could not open a locker with a key. Everyone in that room used a key thousands of times, yet some people's hands were shaking so badly they couldn't unlock a door.

It it likely that an untrained person under much more stress than a bunch of basic trainees will be able to draw a knife they are not used to carrying in a safe and smart manner and then use it in the tiny amount of time they have successfully?

~Rob

[giles]

Alright , being in Britain, we look at things very differently. We CANNOT carry in weapon of any type, for use in self defense (out side security personnel etc) . To do so is to premeditate the act of using it. It does not matter what the attackers intent, numbers, motivation are, you are responsible for planning (premeditatedly) causing injury to the attacker. You will be legally held responsible for these injuries, as they are beyond 'reasonable force'.

Not all of that is strictly speaking true. There's a few specifically banned items: sword stick, butterfly knife, knuckle dusters etc. Then there's anything else which you carry for the intent of causing harm - so Andy is right when he says that you can't carry a weapon for self defence. Having said which if you use a weapon to defend your self it does not remove your right to use reasonable force. The Tony Martin shotgun case eventually backed this up.

UK law is summarised in http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN00330.pdf