Sparring.

[2fisted]

Just want to hear opinions.

[tkdcanada]

I don't think sparring can train you for any type of real life combat because you just don't have the adrenaline rushing through your body the same way. When you spar, you're not afraid for your life and therefore the situation is not really as urgent - there are rules and so you somewhat know what to expect. In a real life situation, you can never know what to expect and so you would act differently in that specific situation.

[Hardcore Fighter]

I think sparring in a ay helps for real life combat. If its sport sparring like TKD or kickboxing then its not too realistic but it still helps.

I think people should train Street fighting sparring. But not kill each other.


Do judo and jujitsu people call it sparring when they grappel?

Andrew Allwander

[RA Miller]

Jujutsukas call it "randori" same as judokas.

As to sparring, properly done it can help with some skills and certain situations, but I feel it is very nearly the worst possible training for surviving an ambush.

Rory

[Skye]

It depends on how you spar, if it's scary then you get some adrenaline. It's alot more scary when you try something new, then you don't really know what to expect. Once you get into a routine you don't learn much more about different situations. You can do little things like let yourself get caught against the ropes (if you have them) and then just try and fight out of that position, or walk up really close without hitting or being hit...just play around a bit.

[Hardcore Fighter]

I think sparring helps for just fighting on one guy and stuff.


Its cool to spar like 2 or 3 people at the same time.

I think the best thing is to just have a street fight with your friends or whatever and just actually fight you know. but not like kill each other. Just do stuff as close as the real thing as you can get. Just dont actually break an arm or whatever.

Sometimes in class I just want to fight. And in TKD sparring in class I get pissed off at those really dumb one legged fighters who think they are the ultimate master becuase they kick with only their front leg and when you try to kick them they block with the same leg and try to hurt your foot with their shin and they ALWAYS have terrible technique and form and are slow and just do stupid front legged side kicks. Those guys piss me off so much. In reality I can grab their leg or kick out their base leg and break their knee and I can kick them in the balls and do a lot of other stuff to them. They think they are the best fighter becuase they sometims will get a good point in. but the thing is the TKD rules are just for the sport and not real self defense. Those guys will never stand a chance in the real world. But ussually I am good enough to beat those one legged guys with TKD sparring rules anyway.


But dont thoe 1 legged fighters anoy the heck out of you? They always have a stupid pose and think they are so good.

"ooo im on one leg look at my awsome balance! Oooo front leg side kick and then a wussy chasing you with my front leg and trying to get a point! Im soo gooooood! Look at my sloppy form! I have no controle and its class time!"

Anyone else feel this way?

Andrew Allwander

[wab25]

If you want to improve you street fighting skills, you need to study kata. Kata is where you will learn all the finer points of each art. Kata is also where you will learn the flow of the move. Kata is where you learn how to make the art work on different types, sizes of people. Kata is where you learn the principle of the art. When you know the principle of the art, you can apply that principle in every other art/situation.

If you want to improve your kata, you need to study randori/sparring. This is where you will learn to apply the art on a resisting person. You will learn how to blend with anothers movement. You will learn to flow from one move to the next, without thinking or memorizing the pattern. This is where you will learn how to find or create the opening for the art. This is where you will learn to let your arts flow without thinking about them. If you focus on trying to do one art, your opponent will see it too and counter. This is where you will learn to go with the opening that presents itself. This is also where you will learn the principle of the art.

The short answer is you need both. There are very valuable things in each. You need the finese of kata, to improve your randori/sparring ability. You need your randori/sparring, to learn how to apply the art in a real situation.

Just because you cannot practice every possibilty that you might face on the street, does not mean that sparring has no value. Yes, on the street you will most likely face a new situation, which requires different responses. But the whole idea of studying a MA is to learn the principles of that style. The moves, arts, training... whatever, is to teach you the principles. Sparring/randori is a way to see well you understand the principles, and how well you can apply the principles in different ways. The more you understand the principles, and how to apply them in different ways, the better prepared you will be for the street. Kata brings much of this understanding, sparring/randori brings the other half.

[LEFTHOOK]

I believe that sparring is a great form of training for real life combat but it must be done properly. You should train for both single and multiple oponents. Mock weapons should be trained with in realistic street situations. While many will argue that their art is to dangerouse for sparring because the techniques will cause seriouse injury and this is a valid point I do believe that they should use some form of sparring for the following reasons. Increases speed, power, and over all toughness of the student.

[rpnp]

Sparring is usually 1 on 1 and randori is more like 1 on 5 coming in all directions...

Sparring has set rules and in a street fight anything goes. There is no "sure" way of teaching some one how to defend themselves on the street the best someone can do is just prepare for the worst. That involves conditioning the body and exercise; too many martial artists overlook daily exercise and conditioning.

Remember all the technique in the world isn’t going to help you if you can perform them w/o getting tired!

[it2x1]

In the military there is a saying that goes, train like you fight. It means that training should be as realistic as possible and that the training should reflect the likely scenarios you will encounter in combat using the tactics that you will need to defeat the enemy. Good training "maneuvers" will emulate reality by trying to "recreat" the battlefield. In short, it's what goes into your senses (sight, sounds, sensations, emotion...). I am relatively new to MA but I have a tendency to look at the things I'm being taught and look for the realistic application in it. Some things are working my reflexes and thats definetly gonna help in real life in all sorts of ways. Some things work my...agility...situational awareness... endurance...emotional control... All these things are going to prepare me for fighting as well as other things. (Am I wrong?) My guess is that a great way to sparr for realistic scenarios is like Hardcore Fighter said; get out of the gym and into different environments and go to town with some friends. When I was little I used to watch a group of guys do this often. Not only was it interesting to watch the dynamics, but see what there imaginations came up with. Then on the weekends, it wasn't hard to find them getting into real fights. Come to think of it, thats probably the real way they got good at fighting.

[Shinoma]

I love to spar. It's better than doing Katas. It is true that you get a different feeling in real combat than you do in sparring. I always get this knot in my throat if there is the remote possibility that I have to fight.

it2x1,
You're right in the concept of "Train like you fight." Some people think that the martial arts will never work in real life. However, the point is to train yourself so your techinques will be usful in every given situation. You're mind must be empty when you fight. This is something I've been trying to put into practice myself

[hac]

depends on the aponants/exponants. if u r learning from it u know, if not u also know. the real question is y ask.

[hac]

shinoma-

"You're right in the concept of "Train like you fight." Some people think that the martial arts will never work in real life. However, the point is to train yourself so your techinques will be usful in every given situation. You're mind must be empty when you fight."

my sentiments exactly, RESPECT!

[reynoldsc]

It depends on what type of sparing. In Boxing we dont do the hole point deal (wile sparing). Its just so you can try new combos see how they work for ya and and help you find you strengts. It conditions your body as well. Ied never be where I am now without it. It will help you in the real world A LOT more. heh when that little tap is only a tap not a point.


chad reynolds

[patfromlogan]

"I don't think sparring can train you for any type of real life combat because you just don't have the adrenaline rushing through your body the same way"

It gets pretty close when the sparring is realistic. I was lucky enough to spend time in Kyokushin with mild mannered Mormons (who weren't so polite on the mats), outlaw bikers, and exstreet fighters. There tended to be a high level of adrenaline, especially when you knew that if you got hit, you were going to be in a world of hurt.

Since I'm back to add my name, I would also add as I did in a 'will it work' thread, go other schools or dojos as a guest and try it out. Like the American Kempo school sparred on Friday and various students of other arts were welcome to drop by.

pat easterling

[Jeff Burger]

Welcome to Budoseek PatfromLogan

Per forum rules please include your real full name.

JMB

[worndowndahnbonym]

I think that a lot of it depends on how you spar, and why.

My old instructor used to say that he was teaching us martial arts. If we were at war, or living in a war zone, then he would teach us how to fight... but until then, we would continue to learn Martial Arts.

When I used to spar, it was a test of my martial arts and body against someone elses. A much better body could overcome mediocre art.... and a much better art could counter act much better physical conditioning.

However, I cannot go out and test myself in a real streetfight. I found out long ago that when I am in a conflict, all I do is try to find the fastest and best way to cripple or kill my opponent, and then get away.

Adding martial arts training to that has led me to the belief that when/if I ever get in a real, honest-to-goodness fight, I am probably going to kill someone.

Therefore, I find it much easier to just avoid the situations where that could happen.

[kwan kune]

in my opinion sparring is an exercise done for one thing and that is timeing. in real life there are no points also if you are hit you will either be pursued or have the chance to counter. but all in all it is the closest thing to a real fight were there is little risk of being hurt.

[Chrono]

To some extent sparring does help in real life situations. You learn to adapt to the other fighter's style. You learn what seems to work and what doesn't. You learn what mistakes you could be making which may turn out to be fatal if it were a real situation. That's my take on it, anyway.

[Erik]

If you want to improve you street fighting skills, you need to study kata. Kata is where you will learn all the finer points of each art. Kata is also where you will learn the flow of the move. Kata is where you learn how to make the art work on different types, sizes of people. Kata is where you learn the principle of the art. When you know the principle of the art, you can apply that principle in every other art/situation.

Absolutely not. Katas are good for kids or people who lack basic MA or mechanical dexterity but fighting air trains people to do things wrong, plain and simple.

(Climb up on soapbox...)

For real-life, katas teach wrong principles as:
1) there is no natural aiming point when striking, no target, just a point in space, which is not true to life, as your opponent will be moving and learning targeting is a huge lesson that must be learned,

2) there is nobody hiting you back so the kata-doer does not learn to protect himself against an unpredictable opponent,

3) it teaches someone to develop a sense of timing that is purely internal, i.e. not based upon siezing advantage of an opponent's lapses, which is intentionally putting the mind in the wrong place,

4) there is no resistance when hitting air and a fighter is apt to injure himself if he does not learn to hit against something massive like a heavy bag, side of beef, or the like,

5) kata teaches self-balance and, as per Newton's 1st law, if you kick or hit something, it will push back against you which, in real life, can knock you right over,

6) kata is choreographed which teaches a person to do things in an artifical order whereas, by definition, real fights are very difficult to predict and managing these unpredictable strings of events is the key to survival (and even more so for victory),

7) kata teaches silly, irrelevant details, such as looking pretty or semetric or aesthetically balanced, all of which put the mind in completely the wrong place for real-life fighting,

8) kata convinces a person that certain techniques will work when in fact they are learning them wrong as the practicioner is doing the techniques in their own little world, one that will be burst open upon first contact with a real opponent,

9)most importantly, katas rob the practicioner of an unwilling, uncompliant, fully-countering and resisting opponent, which is the single most vital part of training for real life.

In 5 years of bouncing during which time I inflicted 7 choke-outs, two broken arms, a broken leg, and survived numerous other dramas in which I was able to subdue my opponent(s) without injury to them (and never myself), the most important MA training I had was actually high school wrestling and college water polo. Both taught me to manage chaos and both, strangely, were more difficult than real fights (go figure).

I only discovered judo, kickboxing, and BJJ later, but the constant practice against a resisting and countering opponent is the single best way to train outside of actually picking fights with strangers (which is simply not polite nor legal).

(...dismount soapbox.)