Who is Hastumi, Ashida Kim, Steven K. Hayes, Andrew Adams, Robert Bussey

[ghosted]

At which point you should have stopped instead of piling it on higher and deeper.

I said I was here to learn, you're not heping to change my views on anything... Or, even trying.

Later,
Ron

[Don Roley]

I said I was here to learn,

You also said you were a former Force Recon member and that seems to be untrue as well..........

[heretic888]

I said I was here to learn....

If you are really here to learn, then why are you spouting out misinformation and vague generalizations as historical facts?? Wouldn't someone genuinely interested in learning more begin by asking questions, not telling everyone else how things are??

Personally, I share Don's suspicions of your honesty. However, for the benefit of others that might happen to read this thread, I think a few corrections to your historical inaccuracies are in order....

Regarding the claim that ninjutsu was an art developed and used by peasants, or that the historical ninja groups of Iga and Koga were particularly despised, one need only review a few period accounts to dispel this misconception.

In the Nochi Kagami, an annal of the Ashikaga shogunate, we read: "Concerning ninja, they were said to be from Iga and Koga, and went freely into enemy castles in secret. They observed hidden things, and were taken as being friends." This source also goes on to mention a specific instance in which Iga ninja were involved: "Inside the camp at Magari of the Shogun Yoshihisa there were ninja whose names were famous throughout the land. When Yoshihisa attacked Rokkaku Takayori, the family of Kawai Aki-no-kami of Iga, who served him at Magari earned considerable merit as ninja in front of the great army of the Shogun. Since then successive generations of Iga men have been admired. This is the origin of the fame of the men of Iga."

Also, in the Go Kagami, we read a similar account: "There was a retainer of the family of Kawai Aki-no-kami of Iga, of pre-eminent skill in shinobi, and consequently for generations the name of people from Iga became established. Another tradition grew in Koga."

Lastly, the Ou Fikei Gunki states: "Within Hataya castle there was a glorious ninja whose skill was renowned, and one night he entered the enemy camp secretly. He took the flag from Naoe Kanetsugu's guard Temmago Zamon and returned and stood it on a high place on the front gate of the castle."

All of the aforementioned excerpts can be found in Stephen Turnbull's most recent publication on the subject of ninja. One of the most striking aspects of primary source materials like the Nochi Kagami is that, contrary to popular belief, the ninja don't seem to have been particularly despised or looked down upon. Indeed, the previous excerpts suggest a praiseworthy tone in regards to their accomplishments. This is before they started working as officials for the Tokugawa government, mind you.

In addition to the descriptions of these individuals given to us by outsiders, it is also prudent to examine how the "ninja" were perceived and interacted with by the people living in their own provinces. Pierre Francis Souryi, in his The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society, gives us an excellent account of the sociopolitical situation in Iga Province and elsewhere:

"In Iga, local power was exercised by the jizamurai, sixty-six of whom had taken vows. Entrenched in their small fortresses, they collectively administered the territory and made laws. Talks were usually held in a Buddhist temple, the Heirakuji, but the basis of the regional commune was a federation of village communes, which wrote a 'constitution.'" (p. 190)

"During the civil war of the fourteenth century, local samurai formed regional alliances (gunnai ichizoku), which were transformed into organizations that in the sixteenth century assumed all local powers. The strength of the regional commune was in the military leadership of the peasants by low-ranking warriors. Although the social difference between the former and the latter was clear, it was it was not insurmountable, for the Iga commune also promoted heroic fighters." (p. 191)

"The structure of the regional communes in Oyamato, Iga, and Kóga was apparently both horizontal and vertical. At the local level, jizamurai and peasants were organized within the community framework of the village. These communes were linked to other, similar ones to form a federation. But the jizamurai also provided hierarchical collective control of the region as a whole. These forms of organization were reminiscent of the 'valley communities' of the Swiss Waldstetten in the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries. The pact of 1291, considered to be the founding act of Switzerland, was a 'peace charter' among local communes to prevent outside aggression, similar to the ultimatum made by the Yamashiro rebels to the Hatakeyama armies in 1485 and the twelve-point charter of the Iga commune around 1560." (p. 192)

Now, moving on to the claim that the yamabushi were oppressed religious outcasts (as espoused in Stephen Hayes' early books), Alexei Gorbyliov addresses this issue quite well in his Unknown Ninjutsu article:

"In many popular texts there are stories about persecution mountainous anchorites (yamabushi) - followers of shugendo. This persecution was inspired by the fact that most of yamabushi were self-claimed monks, who preached among people anothe version of buddhism, different from official one. It is considered that this persecution was the push for developing among mountainous anchorites the secret methods of guerillia warfare, camouflage and gand-to-hand combat, from wich later the ninjutsu arised.

But in the case of close investigation of shugendo history we can find many weak points of this version. The persecution of yamabushi was during very short time, about 20 years, and quickly stopped. Immediately after removing of monk-minister Dokyo - main enemy of mountainous anchorites - almost all limitations of yamabushi activities were taken off. Goverment lost struggle against shugendo, even some representatives of aristocracy and high-level buddhist clergy joined to this teaching. Hence mountainous ascetics didn't have big necessarity in practising martial arts.

Moreover, it is very hard to find any information about participating of yamabushi in military operations and about their practising of martial arts or ninjutsu. Also, there is no such information in 'History of all mountains' ('Shojan engi') - one of the main source on shugendo, written at the end of XII century (author translated this text during working on thessisses, dedicated to influence of 'Way of finding the supernatural might' and cult of mountains on world outlook of medieval japanese).

But some hints about yamabushi'a participating in military operations do exist. They are related with the second half of XII century, when big organisations of mountainous anchorites were formed. Such organisations comtrolled large territories and had big troops of monks-warriors.

One hundred years later many commanders began to use yamabushi as spys, it is written in documents of that time, for instance, in 'Story about great peace' ('Taiheiki'). THe explanation is simple: yamabushi, like other monks, could cross all borders without searching and without documents, all they need is ability to perform some special skills. Groups of yamabushi, going to holy some place, were usual, and not suspicious. Usual spys, familiar on some level with prayers of mountainous anchorites, began to use this.

So, the role of yamabushi was less than in stories of various 'historians'. But in this case why japanese historians underline a great influence of shugendo on this art?

First, yamabushi created many effective kinds of training human's psychology and managing it. It is impossible to underestimate this fact, especially when tell about martial art, where the price of victory is life. Second, the teaching of yamabushi, lived near the family clans, which from generation to generation trained ninjutsu, determined the world outlook of the lasts. The evidence is various magic tricks (including famous finger positions and kuji-in spells), typical for yamabushi guarding amulets, used by ninja, and worship to special gods from shugendo pantheon.

But the point is not only in real yamabushi's influence on ninjutsu. Medieval consciousness always tried to give a value for some event by connecting with some god, hero, thinker or saint. Here it was the role for yamabushi. Their life for usual japanese was connected with holiness, with assotiation with another world, with possessing supernatural possibilities. By the way, in japanese historical literature we can find another versions of ninjutsu origin, similar to yamabushi theory. Some legends say that ninjutsu was created by Abe-no Seimei, who was first japanese follower of ying-yan teaching (onmyo-jutsu). In legends of ninja of Kiyi province the creator of espionage is chinese taoist Xu Fu, who came to Japan in III century B.C., ordered by emperor Qin Shihuan-di to find a fruit of immortality."

To summarize some of the main points that Gorbyliov is addressing in the aforementioned excerpt: 1) the yamabushi were actively persecuted no more than 20 years or so, 2) there is very little historical evidence to associate the yamabushi with martial arts practice, and 3) the yamabushi were often revered by the aristocracy and Buddhist clergy.

As unsettling as this may be, history isn't like the movies. Things are typically a lot more mundane and down-to-earth than some would have you believe.

Laterz.

[MMAfighter]

well i know for sure ashida kim is a mcdojo guy, i dunno about the other guys but i don't doubt that they are.

[ghosted]

Trent,

1) The Jews were only persecuted by Hitler for the Jews for 22 years (i'm counting when he first wrote "My Struggle" in prison) and they're not still angry over that... Seriously, the psychology of any group persecuted for any length of time is to remain "Vigilant" I guess you'd say. I could start naming groups here in the US who cry about civil rights & their ancestors everytime something goes wrong to prove my point an "racial paranoia" but we can all think of that for ourselves.

2) There are historic text from Japan which display ninja, more accurately shinobi was criminals, scum & so forth. Now I'll also admit, the same can be seen of historic records here in the US about Native Americans, at various times in history.

So I may give you that one. There is a saying "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." I'm more incline to see a shinobi or a samurai as what they where, a man or woman. Nothing more nothing less, if I further your cause I'm credited with being a daring & brave individual, if I work against your views then I would be scum. My methods would not matter so long as the side who praised me won. That’s the reality of war, whoever wins writes the history books & whoever fought for them become heros. We only need to look at our own history to prove this.

So I guess you'd say one is only recorded in history as scum, if your on the losing end of the battle. Now that I believe we can both agree on?

3) Lets assume that one of the two main "creation myths" is solely true. That ninjutsu was a higher form, samurai bujutsu that was based more on an idea like Sun Tzu's Art of War, as opposed to specifically that book.

Now ninjutsu would be nothing more then an aspect of bujutsu... An added skill for samurai who trained under those conditions, or where employed with those added traits. It would make sense, since a smaller feudal house would need some edge over a larger one in a fuedal system of government.
Bare in mind this would mean a high ranking samurai who became a ronin because of the falling of a noble house, would be open to whatever got him feed. A ronin, was often a mercenary or sorts. A mercenary with skills in stealth, survival, as well as, excellent combat skill would serve a high price. Many took their skill & became farmers (peasants), bandits (criminals) or monks.

A better way to explain it is this, not all people are morally obligated to follow a certain order of thought or moral judgment. Also I remember a few historic records such as the Houjou-ki (The Houjou clans official record) being obviously & intentionally grossly inaccurate.

Now let us assume that only the second idea is true, that yamabushi developed the art specifically within their own forests & mountain retreats. Later, employing it as a system of combat & survival. Seeing as how the Chinese brought Taoist & Buddist teachings to Japan, they no doubt brought some aspects of martial arts. Given how slowly information traveled in those times, can you or anyone guarantee that all the groups who persecuted the yamabushi stopped immediately after?

Personally I see both “ideas” as real, some “ninjutsu” was an aspect of Bujutsu, some came from the yamabushi. Still some ronin might of found a place as a hunter & mixed his martial training with basic methods needed to hunt wild game into a form of ninjutsu. Point is unless your there for an art inception, you really don’t know now do you. And, there are several proven inaccuracies within a given set of historical references.

4) Now we all know the Daimyo & various groups kept records to prove their position or for historic prestige. But, what of an Ashigarusha? What of common families? What of ronin? No they didn't, so a ronin who later settled into a farmers position within a caste system or that of an ashigaru, which were generally conscripts from the peasant population, wouldn't have a recorded history would they?

Even though their training & knowledge may or may not be passed down to the next generation... And in all reality even a billionaire is worthless if he/she can not pass some experience of life onto their children. So why not pass the skills that might allow them to survive in times of war, or protect them from bandits. Remember at one time even peasants carried swords.

5) As I said " For his (Kioshi Omoto) part, ninjutsu is the art of thieves & peasants. Thats what he told me thats how I accept it.” Meaning at some point in the history of art most of the practicers where not of great status. A better way to explain is this. A thief enters your home & removes objects without your permission. A spy may very well do the same thing, & use the same methods. Only one is a criminal & that is simply because he does not serve the governing body.

Speaking or morality in purely philosophical terms it is “subject” to a person’s views of the world, or society’s whims. Speaking of morality in a purely religious sense, murder is murder regardless of who or why it is done. Speaking in a purely religious sense a soldier is as much a criminal for the lives he takes as common criminal. But, that’s in a purely religious sense of the meaning.

In reality a person will kill for food, for protection & for ego. We will also kill to protect our wives, our children, our way of life. Is that wrong? Yes, purely there is evil in death & violence. But it is a necessary evil to protect those we love. Do you become a murder to protect yourself? Better if you’re a willing “sacrificial lamb” does that mean your murdering yourself through non-violence? As I said before “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” So in turn “One man’s spy is another man’s thief.”

Later,
Ron

[Kreth]

1) The Jews were only persecuted by Hitler for the Jews for 22 years (i'm counting when he first wrote "My Struggle" in prison) and they're not still angry over that... Seriously, the psychology of any group persecuted for any length of time is to remain "Vigilant" I guess you'd say.

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

2) There are historic text from Japan which display ninja, more accurately shinobi was criminals, scum & so forth.

Could you provide titles and page numbers for this citation?

[heretic888]

1) The Jews were only persecuted by Hitler for the Jews for 22 years (i'm counting when he first wrote "My Struggle" in prison) and they're not still angry over that... Seriously, the psychology of any group persecuted for any length of time is to remain "Vigilant" I guess you'd say. I could start naming groups here in the US who cry about civil rights & their ancestors everytime something goes wrong to prove my point an "racial paranoia" but we can all think of that for ourselves.

I'm with Jeff here. What possible relevance does this have??

2) There are historic text from Japan which display ninja, more accurately shinobi was criminals, scum & so forth.

If that's the case, then you won't mind citing your sources.

So I may give you that one. There is a saying "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

Paraphrasing one of Stephen Hayes' books isn't going to help your argument.

I'm more incline to see a shinobi or a samurai as what they where, a man or woman. Nothing more nothing less, if I further your cause I'm credited with being a daring & brave individual, if I work against your views then I would be scum. My methods would not matter so long as the side who praised me won. That’s the reality of war, whoever wins writes the history books & whoever fought for them become heros. We only need to look at our own history to prove this.

So I guess you'd say one is only recorded in history as scum, if your on the losing end of the battle. Now that I believe we can both agree on?

Sure, but what relevance does it have to the discussion??

3) Lets assume that one of the two main "creation myths" is solely true. That ninjutsu was a higher form, samurai bujutsu that was based more on an idea like Sun Tzu's Art of War, as opposed to specifically that book.

Speculating about how ninjutsu may or may not have been "created", or even what form it took prior to the Muromachi period, is an exercise in futility.

All we can say with any degree of relative certainty is the form it took in Sengoku period: ninjutsu, as used by the Iga-shu or Koga-shu (and their various offshoots, such as the Kishu-shu), was passed on from generation to generation by buke families that were the de facto rulers of their respective regions.

The "ninja" of Iga and Koga are referred to as retainers (i.e., samurai) in period accounts like the Nochi Kagami and Go Kagami. Families that are reknowned for passing on ninjutsu traditions, such as the Hattori, are documented as buke. The twelve-point charter drafted by the Iga federation around 1560 had specific rules concerning the position of samurai and ashigaru in their community. A source that doesn't mention "ninja" or "shinobi" once in its description of Japanese historical sociology, Pierre Francis Souryi's The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society, consistently refers to the Iga commune's warriors as jizamurai. Masaaki Hatsumi, in Ninja/Ninpo Gaho, also clearly refers to the warriors of Iga and Koga as jizamurai.

Really, I don't even understand why this is being debated.

Bare in mind this would mean a high ranking samurai who became a ronin because of the falling of a noble house, would be open to whatever got him feed. A ronin, was often a mercenary or sorts. A mercenary with skills in stealth, survival, as well as, excellent combat skill would serve a high price. Many took their skill & became farmers (peasants), bandits (criminals) or monks.

Sorry, but this is inaccurate romanticism.

Most ronin during the Sengoku period were quickly taken in by one of the various daimyo seeking to swell the numbers of their armies. Please see Stephen Turnbull's The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts for more information on this subject.

This romantic fantasy of the lone "wandering ronin" is largely a product of taking the stories of kensei like Miyamoto Musashi and projecting them onto all of Japanese culture. Not all (or even most) ronin were kensei.

A better way to explain it is this, not all people are morally obligated to follow a certain order of thought or moral judgment.

Again, the relevance??

Also I remember a few historic records such as the Houjou-ki (The Houjou clans official record) being obviously & intentionally grossly inaccurate.

Sure, but you actually have to prove any such source is inaccurate by supporting your assertions with actual evidence. It requires much more than self-validating just-so statements.

Now let us assume that only the second idea is true, that yamabushi developed the art specifically within their own forests & mountain retreats. Later, employing it as a system of combat & survival. Seeing as how the Chinese brought Taoist & Buddist teachings to Japan, they no doubt brought some aspects of martial arts. Given how slowly information traveled in those times, can you or anyone guarantee that all the groups who persecuted the yamabushi stopped immediately after?

This is all just empty speculation. You have yet to provide any evidence to support your assertion that the yamabushi were directly involved with the development of ninjutsu, or even that they had any need to develop such skills.

Personally I see both “ideas” as real, some “ninjutsu” was an aspect of Bujutsu, some came from the yamabushi.

No offense, but you're hardly an expert when it comes to Japanese history.

Point is unless your there for an art inception, you really don’t know now do you.

That can be said for just about anything.

Ergo, its relevance to the discussion is completely meaningless, being nothing more than a thinly-veiled smokescreen to mask your own ignorance of the subject.

And, there are several proven inaccuracies within a given set of historical references.

Yeah, but you actually have to prove them to be inaccurate.

4) Now we all know the Daimyo & various groups kept records to prove their position or for historic prestige. But, what of an Ashigarusha? What of common families? What of ronin? No they didn't, so a ronin who later settled into a farmers position within a caste system or that of an ashigaru, which were generally conscripts from the peasant population, wouldn't have a recorded history would they?

Even though their training & knowledge may or may not be passed down to the next generation... And in all reality even a billionaire is worthless if he/she can not pass some experience of life onto their children. So why not pass the skills that might allow them to survive in times of war, or protect them from bandits. Remember at one time even peasants carried swords.

Relevance??

5) As I said " For his (Kioshi Omoto) part, ninjutsu is the art of thieves & peasants. Thats what he told me thats how I accept it.” Meaning at some point in the history of art most of the practicers where not of great status.

As I demonstrated earlier, this is simply wrong --- at least if we're talking about the Iga/Koga groups.

A better way to explain is this. A thief enters your home & removes objects without your permission. A spy may very well do the same thing, & use the same methods. Only one is a criminal & that is simply because he does not serve the governing body.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The "ninja" did serve Japan's governing bodies (i.e., Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates).

Speaking or morality in purely philosophical terms it is “subject” to a person’s views of the world, or society’s whims. Speaking of morality in a purely religious sense, murder is murder regardless of who or why it is done. Speaking in a purely religious sense a soldier is as much a criminal for the lives he takes as common criminal. But, that’s in a purely religious sense of the meaning.

At what point did religion and morality become a variable in this discussion??

Again, I feel the need to ask: If you are really here to learn, then why are you spouting out misinformation and vague generalizations as historical facts?? Wouldn't someone genuinely interested in learning more begin by asking questions, not telling everyone else how things are??

You obviously don't know the subject, Ron, yet you are clearly trying to explain to everyone else about how things are. That, in my opinion, is very telling.

Laterz.

[Don Roley]

5) As I said " For his (Kioshi Omoto) part, ninjutsu is the art of thieves & peasants. Thats what he told me thats how I accept it.”

Well, if you want to press the source of you quote as being Kioshi Omoto, you should try to prove that he actually existed. You can't.

On one hand you keep trying to say that you are here to learn. But you spend a lot of time trying to push a point of view when you clearly do not have any knowledge about the subject matter. If you spent some of the time you are spending trying to convince people that you are correct and instead use it to actually try to understand the subject matter, you would be much better off.

[Dale Seago]

On one hand you keep trying to say that you are here to learn. But you spend a lot of time trying to push a point of view when you clearly do not have any knowledge about the subject matter. If you spent some of the time you are spending trying to convince people that you are correct and instead use it to actually try to understand the subject matter, you would be much better off.

Oh, like that whole "emptying your cup" thing?

[ghosted]

I'm with Jeff here. What possible relevance does this have??

My point is simply because the offical record says oh we stopped do that, it doesn't mean that a) it was fully correct & b) that those persicuted where so easily able to accept that "it was so-&-so's fault.

If that's the case, then you won't mind citing your sources.

No problem,

The U.S. Ninja Empire
headquartered in the San Francisco Ninja Society
POBox 12235
San Francisco, Califorina 94112

Would you like thier phone number as well?

Paraphrasing one of Stephen Hayes' books isn't going to help your argument.

Actually the quote one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter didn't come from Hayes, it was one of our founding fathers. Though I don't remember which one, I think Andrew Jackson, but I'm not positive.

Sure, but what relevance does it have to the discussion??

The point was that history books & records often do not convey the human side of any aspect of history. I think we can both agree there?

Speculating about how ninjutsu may or may not have been "created", or even what form it took prior to the Muromachi period, is an exercise in futility.

All we can say with any degree of relative certainty is the form it took in Sengoku period: ninjutsu, as used by the Iga-shu or Koga-shu (and their various offshoots, such as the Kishu-shu), was passed on from generation to generation by buke families that were the de facto rulers of their respective regions.

The "ninja" of Iga and Koga are referred to as retainers (i.e., samurai) in period accounts like the Nochi Kagami and Go Kagami. Families that are reknowned for passing on ninjutsu traditions, such as the Hattori, are documented as buke. The twelve-point charter drafted by the Iga federation around 1560 had specific rules concerning the position of samurai and ashigaru in their community. A source that doesn't mention "ninja" or "shinobi" once in its description of Japanese historical sociology, Pierre Francis Souryi's The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society, consistently refers to the Iga commune's warriors as jizamurai. Masaaki Hatsumi, in Ninja/Ninpo Gaho, also clearly refers to the warriors of Iga and Koga as jizamurai.

Really, I don't even understand why this is being debated.

Because, 1) most fuedal armies where made up of ashigarusha (foot soldiers) conscripted from the peasants below the land owning samurai (jizarmurai) or noble families. 2) Simply because the warrior cast, was recorded as being something or knowing something it does mean that knowledge or concept wasn't passed on to someone who wasn't mentioned in history.

Most ronin during the Sengoku period were quickly taken in by one of the various daimyo seeking to swell the numbers of their armies. Please see Stephen Turnbull's The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts for more information on this subject.

This romantic fantasy of the lone "wandering ronin" is largely a product of taking the stories of kensei like Miyamoto Musashi and projecting them onto all of Japanese culture. Not all (or even most) ronin were kensei.

True, some settled as farmers, some became bandits, some found service beneath new masters. However, because only a few may have done something, or that most have not, does not mean it could not have happened as an exception to the rule.

Statistics are a way to maintain prospect, but that prospective is tainted by the reality that an individual either does or does not. There fore as I said because most have done something, it does not mean that all have.

Again, the relevance??

That not every will not act as asumed do to religion or social code. Simply saying, a samurai could not be a thief because of bushido or the an individual may or may not do something because of religion is impractical. Need I remind you that Ishikawa Goemon is recorded in history as a ninja & a thief. Even though he isn't connected to any specific ryu.

Sure, but you actually have to prove any such source is inaccurate by supporting your assertions with actual evidence. It requires much more than self-validating just-so statements.

Why others have, the Baksenshukai, where the Japanese governement award Fujibayashi the title of Koga-inshi so that others would accept the scrolls of the Koga Ryu he brought forward as authentic? Fujibayashi was an Iga Ryu Ninja, but he had no proof of a Koga Ryu lineage. So to throw off suppision to the koga ryu scrolls the governement award the title of Koga Ryu ninja, to make the scrolls authentic.

Yeah, but you actually have to prove them to be inaccurate.

So Kotaro Fuma was 7 feet and 2inches tall, had four large fangs sticking out from his lips & two horns that stuck out through his jet black hair. Kotaro Fuma was also said to have a very bad temper, use an extra long ninja-to, drank 2 gallons of sake and eat 150 musubi.

Because thats what the Houjou-ki (Houjou clan's offical record), says. Even though other accounts record him as being only 5 feet tall, was normal looking.

Relevance??

We don't know what the non-samurai, non-royal, non-noble families knew, simply because it isn't on record.

As I demonstrated earlier, this is simply wrong --- at least if we're talking about the Iga/Koga groups.

But how do we know since no one but perhaps the family itself cared for what a commoner had to say?

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The "ninja" did serve Japan's governing bodies (i.e., Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates).

But can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that they only served the japanese government? No you can't...

Again, I feel the need to ask: If you are really here to learn, then why are you spouting out misinformation and vague generalizations as historical facts?? Wouldn't someone genuinely interested in learning more begin by asking questions, not telling everyone else how things are??

You obviously don't know the subject, Ron, yet you are clearly trying to explain to everyone else about how things are. That, in my opinion, is very telling.

Laterz.

No see, I don't like the "I'm wrong cause I don't share your views" oppinion. I'm also an advid beliver in objective thought, objective is doubting everyone's version of the truth. I'm willing to admit, I may have been lied to. For the sake of objectivity, I may be lieing, I'm not but I could be. Same as everyone here.
But, objectively speaking their are other sources of information then the asumed experts. Which of course any scholar who varies from your view of how things are will be omitted for bias reasons. That same aspect of human nature can be applied to anyone including me, you, Dale, the guy who picks up my trash.
In short I will not simply asume I wrong or my information is simply because you say I am.

Peace,
Ron

[Kreth]

No problem,

The U.S. Ninja Empire
headquartered in the San Francisco Ninja Society
POBox 12235
San Francisco, Califorina 94112

Ah, "Harunaka Hoshino"... Now there's a reliable source...

[Dale Seago]

Ah, "Harunaka Hoshino"... Now there's a reliable source...

Background: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...301#post678301

[Don Roley]

Some posts are so full of holes I don't know where to begin.

My point is simply because the offical record says oh we stopped do that, it doesn't mean that a) it was fully correct & b) that those persicuted where so easily able to accept that "it was so-&-so's fault.

Again, you really do not have much knowledge of the subject matter if you still cling to the idea of the ninja as a persecuted class. And officail records are not the only thing we look at when we look at history and there is no record at all for the picture you are trying to push.

No problem,

The U.S. Ninja Empire
headquartered in the San Francisco Ninja Society
POBox 12235
San Francisco, Califorina 94112

Would you like thier phone number as well?

Honraku Hoshino? You use that fraud as a source?

Actually the quote one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter didn't come from Hayes, it was one of our founding fathers. Though I don't remember which one, I think Andrew Jackson, but I'm not positive.

A- I doubt Jackson used the phrase and B- the whole idea that the samurai called the ninja terrorists is wrong.

Why others have, the Baksenshukai, where the Japanese governement award Fujibayashi the title of Koga-inshi so that others would accept the scrolls of the Koga Ryu he brought forward as authentic? Fujibayashi was an Iga Ryu Ninja, but he had no proof of a Koga Ryu lineage. So to throw off suppision to the koga ryu scrolls the governement award the title of Koga Ryu ninja, to make the scrolls authentic.

The above is complete garbage and almost made me fall off my seat laughing. Go ahead and try to prove the above statement is something other than what you pulled out of thin air.

I am going to stop here. The entire post is so filled with innacuracies that it is just too much to try to correct them all. Ron, you have really dug yourself a hole. You try to portray yourself as someone that was made a shihan of Koga ryu at age 20, and can't prove you even had a teacher. You say your mythical teacher said certain things and now are faced with the facts that those statements are wrong. You see what type of trouble you get into when you lie about things like that and your service in the USMC?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Honrauku Hoshino, oh please! Ninjutsu for children and
the uninformed.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[Zomg!!11]

It is senseless that you chased Tenshin-sama away. In the big scheme of things it is pointless. Why ban someone because they did not post there name? Quite pathetic actually. Do to this revelation, I confess that I have not once posted my real name and request that I be banned. I feel that this is not worth any trouble. Goodbye.

By the way dale, did you have fun on mythbusters?

[David Craik]

Ask and ye shall receive. Idiot.

That's gotta be a first though, getting P.O.ed because someone was banned four years ago.

"-sama"? LOL, who was he, the Emperor or something?

[Koshu]

Gee whiz. . . . So 47 Ronin-esque (including laying in wait in disguise)! Someone's got their zukin tied on too tight!

[telecino]

Don't worry about other people's opinion. If someone calls you and idiot, and it hurts you, it's because deep inside, you believed him. There is something wonderful on these forums, is that some people (not everyone) seem to speak (write) like they were the only one to hold the truth, and these all-mighty writers are there to teach us who we are inside.

Observe the reactions you have when others are slandering or insulting you, and you will discover your own weeknesses. I thank every one who made the truth about myself available to me, and i'm gald that while doing so, you actualy felt like someone, temporarily.

In martial arts, we learn about the first lesson of the Buddha: there is suffering. Only by accepting it, can we be released from it.

[Toshindo4ever]

Actually, even though Stephen Hayes has his Toshindo now, he is still very much tied to Hatsumi sensei.

This is very true. Despite the rumors and attacks on Anshu in the past, he is and always be Hatsumi Sensei's most senior student in America. We all owe him our loyalty.

There will always be people that seek to tear down others more enlightened than them. Ignore the rumors. Anshu Hayes is still the one source outside of Japan you should listen to above all others.

[Jay Bell]

This is very true. Despite the rumors and attacks on Anshu in the past, he is and always be Hatsumi Sensei's most senior student in America. We all owe him our loyalty.

There will always be people that seek to tear down others more enlightened than them. Ignore the rumors. Anshu Hayes is still the one source outside of Japan you should listen to above all others.

Are you really serious? Let's take a look at something:

06-15-2003

That's when that post was done. Pick up a book, pay attention to what is happening with Bujinkan and more importantly, listen.

Hayes is on his own track...and no longer part of the Bujinkan. Welcome to 2008.