Who is Hastumi, Ashida Kim, Steven K. Hayes, Andrew Adams, Robert Bussey

[Toshindo4ever]

Hayes is on his own track...and no longer part of the Bujinkan. Welcome to 2008.

I am quite well aware of the situation. I know the truth. And I have communicated with Anshu about the situation. Have you?

Do you not want to admit that you have been taken in by a huge conspiracy of people that wish to tear down a great man to promote themselves?

[Webmaster]

I am quite well aware of the situation. I know the truth. And I have communicated with Anshu about the situation. Have you?

Do you not want to admit that you have been taken in by a huge conspiracy of people that wish to tear down a great man to promote themselves?

Jeeze, step away from the Kool-Aid!

First, Jay is not tearing down Mr. Hayes, but is pointing out some obvious things you seem to be ignoring.

(a) Mr. Hayes is Hatsumi's former student.
(b) Former, because he has chosen to teach not the Bujinkan curriculum, but his own and call it Toshindo.
(c) Mr. Hayes may remain on friendly terms with Hatsumi, but he has gone off on his own path and departed from the Bujinkan. As such, he does not speak for Hatsumi or represent the Bujinkan.
(d) Everyone I know of is more than happy to give Mr. Hayes the credit and respect he deserves, but to say that he is still the most senior student of Hatsumi and we must listen to him, is total crap. There are plenty of high ranking members of the Bujinkan who because they have remained as part of the Bujinkan and continued their training under Hatsumi, have advanced beyond Mr. Hayes level and speak with far more authority with regard to the Bujinkan, it's traditions and waza, and policies.

Finally, put the Kool-Aid down!!

[Toshindo4ever]

(a) Mr. Hayes is Hatsumi's former student.
(b) Former, because he has chosen to teach not the Bujinkan curriculum, but his own and call it Toshindo.
(c) Mr. Hayes may remain on friendly terms with Hatsumi, but he has gone off on his own path and departed from the Bujinkan. As such, he does not speak for Hatsumi or represent the Bujinkan.
(d) Everyone I know of is more than happy to give Mr. Hayes the credit and respect he deserves, but to say that he is still the most senior student of Hatsumi and we must listen to him, is total crap. There are plenty of high ranking members of the Bujinkan who because they have remained as part of the Bujinkan and continued their training under Hatsumi, have advanced beyond Mr. Hayes level and speak with far more authority with regard to the Bujinkan, it's traditions and waza, and policies.

(a) No. Talk to Anshu. He is quite public about still being a student of Hatsumi sensei. Try to find a statement by him saying he has cut his ties with the Bujinkan or does not represent it. You can't He even gives out rank certificates from the Bujinkan. You can rank higher in Bujinkan from Anshu than Toshindo while having the same skills because in Toshindo you cover more material. But could he do that if he was a FORMER student of Hatsumi sensei? Are you calling him a liar?

(b) He still teaches Bujinkan AND additional stuff that he calls Toshindo. If you want Bujinkan, you can't find a better teacher of it outside of Japan. But you also get more that just Bujinkan.

(c) Have you talked to either Anshu or Hatsumi sensei about this? Please do so if you care so much about the matter. He has not departed. You can join his forum and ask him yourself. You will get the truth.

(d) In Japanese traditions, you don't get a choice of who to listen to or not. Anshu is the senior student of Hatsumi sensei outside of Japan. He is not the highest ranked only because he turned down any more promotions.

I have a question for anyone who tries to say that Toshindo does not teach Bujinkan- are you a member of Toshindo or have you even talked to either Anshu or Hatsumi sensei about the matter? Why not? Are you afraid of the truth?

[Webmaster]

... are you a member of Toshindo or have you even talked to either Anshu or Hatsumi sensei about the matter? Why not? Are you afraid of the truth?

He can teach anything he wants and call it Bujinkan. He can throw a rank certificate at someone too, but that doesn't mean that he is promoting with Hatsumi's authority to do so.

I am not in the mood for Ninja Wars or Kool-Aid drinkers.

Good Bye!

[Ninjakiller]

Hayes is real, and Ashida Kim is fake

[Musubi Dojo]

No way man. Ashida Kim is the real deal. Have you seen all the sweet hand postures he does? You don't just make crap like that up.

[Dale Seago]

(c) Have you talked to either Anshu or Hatsumi sensei about this? Please do so if you care so much about the matter. He has not departed.

Oh, please.

[Jon-Bhoy]

a) No. Talk to Anshu. He is quite public about still being a student of Hatsumi sensei. Try to find a statement by him saying he has cut his ties with the Bujinkan or does not represent it. You can't He even gives out rank certificates from the Bujinkan. You can rank higher in Bujinkan from Anshu than Toshindo while having the same skills because in Toshindo you cover more material. But could he do that if he was a FORMER student of Hatsumi sensei? Are you calling him a liar?

Sticking your head in the hombu dojo once a year is different than training at the hombu dojo. Mr Hayes still goes to Japan, sure. But he doesnt train.

[Dale Seago]

You can rank higher in Bujinkan from Anshu than Toshindo. . .

That may have remained briefly true in 2006.

But could he do that if he was a FORMER student of Hatsumi sensei?

Until someone bothers to go to the effort and expense of actually suing him over it, yes he could certify people in, say, "Bujinkan martial arts" and issue his own certificates. . .Just as he did, for instance, with "Kukishin (or Kukishinden) ryu Bojutsu" without having the necessary menkyo in that ryu. . .Which is one of the things which appears to have finally made Soke decide to give him the boot. See post #5 and thenceforward at http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33732.

Are you calling him a liar?

I don't think anyone has come right out and called either SKH or Toshindo4ever a liar. I'll happily say, however, that both have made claims about SKH's status vis-a-vis the Bujinkan which are factually untrue.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Why are we going over this again? Hayes is doing his own thing with ToShinDo and he made that choice. I think that is okay but trying to have it both ways is a little much. Many, many, many foreign Budo Taijutsu practitioners have gone beyond in reference to their Budo Taijutsu training. Needless to say this is all old news and if you are in ToShinDo then you should simply just work on your own training and try not to be the spokes person for your teacher.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Oh, please.

Once again Dale thanks for posting this so that everyone can see what the real situation is.

[Jay Bell]

Why are we going over this again? Hayes is doing his own thing with ToShinDo and he made that choice. I think that is okay but trying to have it both ways is a little much. Many, many, many foreign Budo Taijutsu practitioners have gone beyond in reference to their Budo Taijutsu training. Needless to say this is all old news and if you are in ToShinDo then you should simply just work on your own training and try not to be the spokes person for your teacher.

Because once again, Hayes has created an understanding that is not true in any regard. Whenever this happens, fresh meat (that don't know any better) run to the front lines to defend his name and honor...because they're jaded enough to believe the ********.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Because once again, Hayes has created an understanding that is not true in any regard. Whenever this happens, fresh meat (that don't know any better) run to the front lines to defend his name and honor...because they're jaded enough to believe the ********.

Yes I know but it is just kind've sad.

Still I appreciate like you and Dale people that attempt to set the record straight.

[Don Roley]

Why does anyone need to prove anything? You can tell me your SEAL, & I could careless. Proof is only a matter when you want to show someone up. The Army has lost DD214 & 201 files in the past & my uncle who was drafted into the marines during Viet Nam couldn't find his records to prove he served to get his heart surgery. And, Thier still looking for my medical records

I left active duty in April of this year, may go back in. Ashida did give his sensei's name & Ronald Duncan is well kept to himself, but is still largely known for his ninjutsu training. Like I said, I'm more for effect. I only know what my sensei taught me, they never gave me a certificate. What does a piece or paper prove anyway? I'm part roma (gypsy), I don't even know where my great grandfather is from, since acording to records he & my grandfather never existed. But, I assure you I've met my grandfather...

Yes, a bit of a blast from the past. But now Ron is trying to claim that the lies about his military service were part of a huge experiment instead of just a desperate attempt at attention.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DravenAz.../4/ey1Zw-Aa5Io

And anyone who has been in the military will know, the whole thing about him teaching some (idiotic) moves to the guys in his unit is nothing of any great importance.

[Campsinger]

(a) No. Talk to Anshu. He is quite public about still being a student of Hatsumi sensei. Try to find a statement by him saying he has cut his ties with the Bujinkan or does not represent it.

There is one thing about the above quote that alot of people that are unfamiliar with Japanese culture don't realize. It doesn't matter whether you consider someone your teacher or not. The only thing that matters is whether the teacher considers you their student. When Soke had S.K.Hayes name plaque taken down, Soke formally cut any and all ties, publicly claiming that S.K.Hayes is no longer his student.

[tgace334]

Yes, a bit of a blast from the past. But now Ron is trying to claim that the lies about his military service were part of a huge experiment instead of just a desperate attempt at attention.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DravenAz.../4/ey1Zw-Aa5Io

And anyone who has been in the military will know, the whole thing about him teaching some (idiotic) moves to the guys in his unit is nothing of any great importance.

Looks like it's easy to post a ton of videos from your living room when your ankle bracelet wont let you leave the house.

[Hayseed]

On the Hayes/Nameplate topic; I posted this on MAP orginially so rather than re-type everything, I'll just copy/paste...

All this talk of my being “expelled” comes from a few of Masaaki Hatsumi’s newer foreign students (people enrolled after I made the art famous in the 1980s). Some of those newer black belts feel hard pressed to compete with my impact, and believe that if my influence were out of the picture, it would be easier for them to appear more powerful and important.
So basically what he's saying is that the reason people are saying he was "expelled" is because they're just jealous of the impact he's had on American MA.

Sorry, people are saying that he was expelled because his nameplate was taken down from the Judan board without an explanation, though I really feel that none is necessary. Many teachers in BJK have the freedom to teach it how they see fit. If Hayes wanted to do all the things that he does with TSD while still calling it BJK, I don't see where there would've been a problem. For some reason though, he felt it was important to change the name and market it for his own means.

If I rose to Judan level in BJK, and incorporated things that aren't part of the syllabus, I'm confident that there would be no problem. If I however, changed the name of what I was teaching to, say, BJJ-Kan, as an example, I would expect to be treated as a splinter org., and also would expect my nameplate removed. Seems pretty simple to me. He's literally "doing his own thing."

These people seem to be nervous about what I teach, and are discouraged by the attention my words command in the greater martial arts world. Apparently a few of these students kept nagging for my name to be taken off the rank wall now that I am focused on teaching To-Shin Do. I guess they figured that if they could not beat me, they could at least cheat me.

Cheat him out of what? And with as many people that ***** about the lack of standardization within the org., to no avail, I find it difficult to believe that a couple of obviously petty foreign students could get Soke to make such a public display against his will. In fact, I find the idea laughable.

There's nothing wrong with him saying, "Hey, I split off to do my own thing. Soke and I have a great relationship to this day, but I'm no longer doing Bujinkan." End of story. That would've wrapped things up nicely, with very little room for embellishment from others, not to mention that it's the truth. Do we hear that from Hayes himself? No. What DO we hear? 'Petty squabbling high level practitioners, who are only jealous of my voice in the martial arts community, made Soke do it.'

We don't live in a martial arts romance novel! The people I most often see speaking in this romanticized, everyone's just jealous and out to get me tone, are the Kouga kola nutjobs. Before I read this article, I considered Hayes, simply a guy who wanted to do his own thing, which there's nothing wrong with. Now I have a much more negative opinion.

[bujinkan-store]

By what I have read, heard and discussed many times, Westerners especially have a very big ego problem. I believe that Hatsumi realises that sometimes you need to nurture the ego to produce results and if this means grading people up to encourage them onwards he will do.

[bujinkan-store]

By what I have read, heard and discussed many times, Westerners especially have a very big ego problem. I believe that Hatsumi realises that sometimes you need to nurture the ego to produce results and if this means grading people up to encourage them onwards he will do.

The text quoted above was in response to an earlier post in this thread so is out of context with the current discussion. Sorry but it was too late to delete it.

Mind you it is nice to see that somethings never change, I think the Hayes/Hatsumi discussion has been on every forum there is.

[Phil Elmore]

A significant portion of this thread involved "Koga Ryu" ninjitsu stylist Ron Collins, and I quoted this thread in an article I am releasing tonight. For those wishing closure on the Collins issue, at midnight tonight, my comprehensive article on Ron Collins' martial arts and military claims, "Ron Collins: The West Virginian Ninja" will automatically go live at The Martialist ( http://www.themartialist.com ). Here's the summary:

Ron Collins claims to have started studying the martial arts as a toddler, to have earned three black belts by the age of 8, to have earned a second-degree black belt before he was a teenager, and to have earned a fifth-degree black belt by the time he was 20, this last in a secret family-style of Koga Ryu Ninjitsu. None of these claims is believable or even particularly plausible. Mr. Collins can offer as proof no legitimate promotion certificates for most of these ranks. He claims he was, on 11 October, 2010, promoted to a 6th Dan (sixth degree) black belt under "Grandmaster" Lawrence Day.

Ron Collins has a criminal record for assault on a law enforcement officer (or officers) and for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He was convicted in 2008 and was, according to him, released from home confinement in July of 2009. His explanations for these convictions have evolved in the form of conflicting stories, some involving political fallout (somehow connected to the sexual advances of a minor female, according to him) and others revolving around post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

Mr. Collins says he joined the US Marines at the age of 17. He says he served for two years, was discharged for medical reasons (or, alternatively, on a "hardship discharge" because his mother developed cancer), and joined the US Army in 2001. He claims to have joined for a three-year term of enlistment, serving in Korea as an infantryman (where he taught his proprietary martial arts system to fellow soldiers), before being "stop-lossed" for 18 months and deploying to Iraq (where, presumably, he was exposed to conditions and actions that caused his PTSD). He further claims to have been an MP in the Reserves.

None of these military claims is true or accurate. According to FOIA documentation, Mr. Collins joined the Army at the age of 18 and was discharged or excused after only 2 months. In 2001, he again enlisted in the Army and served 3 years and six months in a non-combat capacity in Korea. While he did relate an Army combatives program to fellow soldiers, per Army policy he would not have been permitted to teach an unapproved combatives program of his own design as a low-ranking enlisted man. (Ron himself has referred to his position as "instructor" as "unofficial.") Again according to FOIA documentation, Ron was never "stop lossed" to deploy to Iraq. There is no indication that he was in the Reserves, which means he was never an MP.

The article itself includes many screen captures chronicling every claim Ron has made, in his own words, cross-referenced with his criminal record, the FOIA results from the Army (who responded to my request in September), and even Ron's own words from an e-mail he sent two days ago attempting to clarify his muddy track record of tall tales.

For those of you interested, there is a hilarious write-up of the annual Black Dragon Fighting Society get together in Florida, which took place last weekend, here:

http://ashidakim.com/10.10.10.html

You will notice Ron Collins kneeling in the front row of the group photo (wearing a faded BDFS t-shirt) included near the end of the write-up. He is second from your right.