Traditional Arts vs Modern Arts

[MartialWarrior]

Some people keep saying that modern martial arts are more effective than the traditional martial arts , and that's because they have never seen any "traditional" fighters on K1 , UFC or NHB .. I think traditional arts are much more EFFECTIVE than modern arts , but the "traditional" arts require the proper traditional training.. What do you think, are traditional better than modern martial arts , and why ?

[Hardcore Fighter]

I think traditional arts train you to be better people then most modern arts. Traditional arts have some good values. Some modern arts do to.

I like traditional because it teaches you a lot about yourself and life and I do like the history and philosophy. I think traditional arts develope your body really good and discipline you way better then a modern art.

But traditional arts that are stuck in tradition and wont adapt to realistic situations and keep an open mind are bad. I think an art should always be open to new ideas and better ways of doing certain moves and stuff.

I think an art should teach you a ton of fighting and work you hard to make you a complete well rounded fighter but should be based on good moral philosophies and disciplines at the same time.

i think if a traditional artist trained really hard for some serious combat then he could probably win a k-1 fight or UFC. I hope one day a Tae Kwon Do guy wins one of those because he really traind realistially and will prove to the world that TKD IS an effective art.

One of my instructors told me that a TKD guy beat a Brazilian JJ guy in the UFC. Is that true?

[Jay Bell]

What do you think, are traditional better than modern martial arts , and why ?

First you have to define what 'traditional' and what 'modern' entail.

Aikido, Judo and Hakko ryu Jujutsu are traditional arts...yet quite modern...

[riku]

"---Aikido, Judo and Hakko ryu Jujutsu are traditional arts...yet quite modern..."

... and several 'modern' can be seen having traditional roots, or carrying very traditional ideas. I think both terms can be used both pejorative and praising sense, depending on who's talking and what are her/his intentions.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[SRK85]

Well it depends i think its best when its blended between mdoern and traditional. I take Tae Kwon Do and at my dojang we do a lot of judo techniques, krav maga, and sometimes hapkido as well as tae kwon do.

P.S. I go to a martial arts acdemy not a tae kwon do academy.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Originally posted by Hardcore Fighter


One of my instructors told me that a TKD guy beat a Brazilian JJ guy in the UFC. Is that true?

The short answer is NO. The earlier days of the UFC were more style vs. style and I don't remember any TKD guys doing much. Now that it has evolved into more of a sport on it's own, I am sure that there have been some winners that have studied TKD some time in their past. But now the athletes cross train so much the style lines have blurred. I don't see any single style trained person even making a decent showing, and that includes BJJ.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Andrew:

"......But traditional arts that are stuck in tradition and wont adapt to realistic situations and keep an open mind are bad. I think an art should always be open to new ideas and better ways of doing certain moves and stuff. ...."

I wish I could say I had seen evidence to support what you are saying but the fact is that I haven't.

Its not the art being "traditional" or "realistic" that makes the difference but the manner in which a person trains and dedicates their life to a particular approach. There are plenty of stories of high school wrestlers knocking the stuffing out of so-called TKD Black Belts of the same age-range and it didn't necessarily have to do with one art being better than the other. If you go to a wrestling training session, people are working or the coach has their butt for a waste-paper basket! I have seen my share of TKD classes where folks are doing this or that, performing in front of the mirror or hitting on the girls in the class. This does not make wrestling better that TKD. It just means that if you train hard and regular you are going to be a lot more accomplished than if you don't.

I think its also a little unfair to compare arts across the board without taking into account the intent of the art as well. Kano was a great man and did the world a service by inventing Judo. For my money, though I would rather study ju-jutsu. They ARE similar in many ways, but their intentions can be very different. The same can be said of TKD and HKD, or even Kumdo and Kum Bup. Very similar but with strong differences in intent.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hardcore Fighter]

What I meant was an art that kicks a certain way, but in a few years a more modern way that is faster and more effective of doing the same kick and refuses to change is not a good place to study.
The oldschool TKD kicks were more rounded for a round kick and slower, the new modern way for a round kick is way quicker and more effective. But both kicks are useful. I have found myself doing the oldschool kicks as well in situations.

Its just good to see more scientific aproaches instead of just staying one way and never changing.

But yeah I perform infront of the mirror, not because I think I am soo sexy, but because I check my stances and form to see if it is balanced and correct.

There are no girls to hit on at my school. I wish there were though. Hehhe.

[Arde]

Right now I'm trying to train the traditional way courtesy to this sw33t baji article:
Baji/Piqua Article

usually my method of training is rather simple: usual warm up exercises(running, stretching, push ups, situps), 500 reps of varied strikes and blocks, water break(2-3 min),500 reps of varied kicks,water break again.
After that I do sparring techniques-either shadow boxing or with another person, and finishing that, I do forms/ katas.


I tried this training the first time today, all I can say is I've never seen my energy go down that quickly - after the moving punches, I was really tired. I tried to do my punching reps, but I was already too tired-not my hands, legs, or body-just very tired somehow. Perhaps it's just because I'm still not used to it.
This is what I did in my training today: warm up exercises as usual, horse stance for a few minutes, basic punch from horse stance - by breaking down each movements and learning the mechanics and coordination of the muscles, bones, and breathing-this was really really tiring since I'm doing this all in the horse stance. Stopped once to take a water break.
After that, I did the moving punches-the same thing again, breaking down the movements and learning the mechanics and coordination - I had to stop once in the middle to get a drink and a break.
Tried to do punches rep-failed after the rep 200 - my hands weren't tired but I had no more energy and felt really hungry.

I can see my coordination is actually getting a little bit better also with my breathing...but this is still too early to define anything-I'll give you more details in a few more weeks.

[Hardcore Fighter]

What is baji quan like?

Do you train in your backyard when you do all of this?

[Arde]

Check out the article I posted to see what Baji is all about.
No, I do it mostly at my university's gym-they have a big empty space I can use.

The training doesn't focus too much on techniques rather than your own body coordination, endurance, and breathing-kinda sounds like those MMA training...eh?

Check out in the article on the horse stance-do it for a few breathing counts ...probably about 30-45 breathing counts-but do it correctly!

After that, do the punching from the horse stance like they show in the pictures. But do not just follow the pictures, read the paragraph they have on punching. You should coordinate your feet movement with the waist movement with the shoulder and then the fist as you move, and then on the point of impact, you tightened your fist...ehrm...the article explains it better than I do. I'm just not that good an instructor!!
But, just the punching itself is very complicated in nature-but trust me, this is all for good cause.

It's like what they say about the difference between regular students and special students? The regular students do as the instructor tell them to do, the special students read between the lines-in other words, breaking down the movements and understanding them even further.

[wab25]

I am going to go with traditional Martial Arts as being the most effective. The reason is simply that they build up to stronger and more dangerous techniques. They were designed so that only one person goes home. Todays modern Martial Arts were developed with the idea that everyone goes home again, at the end of the day. The mistake many people make when looking at traditional Martial Arts, is not knowing where the technique is leading.

In modern martial arts, many times it is taught that when you hip throw your opponent, you land on top of him. This is taught as being much more effective than the more traditional way of throwing your opponent and simply letting gravity take him down. Landing on top of your opponent must be more effective, it hits him harder.

Another common technique is tenada jime. This is the arm bar usually shown from the mounted position, the guy on the bottom reaches up, guy on top traps his hand to his chest, turns 90 degrees and lays back, raising his hips to apply the bar. BJJ and most modern martial artists will say always have both of your legs over your opponent as you apply the lock, one over the neck and one over the body. This must be more effective because you can hold and control your opponent better with your legs on top then in any other position.

But, if you stick with the traditional martial arts, after you learn and master hip throws and your balance, you learn the next few steps. After the throw, you catch his head in the air while he is on the way down, and strike his chin as he lands, breaking his neck. Now, which is more effective, throwing and landing on him to knock the wind out of him or throwing and breaking his neck as he hits? Also, if you catch and apply wrist locks or arm locks, you can whip his body in any direction you choose, before he lands, maybe even to put him between yourself and his buddies. Thats a little more effective than landing on top of him, giving a free shot to his buddies.

And the arm bar? It is more effective if you plan on waiting around for the referee or police to break it up. But if you throw the guy first, and land with your feet under him and apply the "bar" as he lands, it becomes a break. If throwing him and breaking his arm as he lands doesn't take the fight out of him, you just keep twisting that broken arm as you get up and throw him again with a few arm whips. It may not be nice, but it is effective.

Modern Martial Arts are very good at winning tournaments, but that is about as far as they go. Traditional Martial Arts were for battle. The kind were not everyone goes home. All the modern Martial Arts have techniques borrowed from the traditional Martial Arts. The difference is that the Modern guys only took one link from the middle of the chain, not realizing that it may be a building block to a much more effective move, with a much different outcome.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Originally posted by wab25
Another common technique is tenada jime. This is the arm bar usually shown from the mounted position, the guy on the bottom reaches up, guy on top traps his hand to his chest, turns 90 degrees and lays back, raising his hips to apply the bar.

That sounds like Juji Gatame, I thought jimi/shimi meant "choke"?

But, if you stick with the traditional martial arts, after you learn and master hip throws and your balance, you learn the next few steps. After the throw, you catch his head in the air while he is on the way down, and strike his chin as he lands, breaking his neck. Now, which is more effective, throwing and landing on him to knock the wind out of him or throwing and breaking his neck as he hits? Also, if you catch and apply wrist locks or arm locks, you can whip his body in any direction you choose, before he lands, maybe even to put him between yourself and his buddies. Thats a little more effective than landing on top of him, giving a free shot to his buddies.

And the arm bar? It is more effective if you plan on waiting around for the referee or police to break it up. But if you throw the guy first, and land with your feet under him and apply the "bar" as he lands, it becomes a break. If throwing him and breaking his arm as he lands doesn't take the fight out of him, you just keep twisting that broken arm as you get up and throw him again with a few arm whips. It may not be nice, but it is effective.

Well, are we not getting into the same old argument that has been around forever? How do you "know" you can break a neck with your throw? You can practice lots of deadly techniques with no way of knowing if they will work because you cannot do them on a training partner. However the more sporting styles, like BJJ and Judo, can practice what they do full speed, all day, without hurting each other. Who do you think will be able to pull it off for "real" when the chips are down?

Also, throwing directly into a lock is practiced by lots of folks, not just traditional MA.

As long as you enjoy what you are doing, and are realistic about what can happen in self defense, then it really doesn't matter. Baskins and Robbins has 31 flavors for a reason.

[wab25]

You may be right on the name, I admit names of techniques are my weak point. But I thought Juji Gatame was a different technique on our list. Anyway, I will look it up on our lists for the sake of accuracy.

================================
Well, are we not getting into the same old argument that has been around forever? How do you "know" you can break a neck with your throw? You can practice lots of deadly techniques with no way of knowing if they will work because you cannot do them on a training partner. However the more sporting styles, like BJJ and Judo, can practice what they do full speed, all day, without hurting each other. Who do you think will be able to pull it off for "real" when the chips are down?
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How do I know I can break a neck with my throw? Mainly, because we practice these techniques at full speed and even in randori. I throw my uke, reach out and catch the back of his head as he falls in front of me, and I lock his neck as he falls. When he lands, he lands in front of me, neck locked, body impacting the ground and I am in the same position used by many people to break bricks, only it is uke's chin. Yes I do simulate a strike, but it is to the target, practicing both location and direction of force. With the neck locked like that, it does not take much force to break it. In the stance I am in, with the target in the correct position, I can generate huge amounts of force, as demonstrated by those who like to break bricks ( they don't choose that stance arbitrarily). Furthermore, my timing is perfect, the strike lands as uke hits the ground, my target is perfect and even the direction of force is perfect. I have done this 1000's of times on many different people, both in kata and in randori at full speed.

We do not throw into a lock, we throw into a break. The position we land in is not too great for controling uke on the ground. The position is perfect for a break as uke lands. Again, we practice this at full speed, both kata and randori. This time we stop at the breaking point on the elbow. Yes, it is dangerous to practice. That is why it is something we work up to. One must develop a sense of feel and control first. When we practice these techniques, uke lands with his arm right on the edge, where a millimeter more will do serious damage to the elbow. The position I land in, gives me tremendous force to use against the elbow. And there are even ways to practice that use the force "safely." Again, I have done this 1000's of times in both kata and randori, at full speed.

Do I think I can pull these moves off when the chips are down? Yes. I can pull them in kata so fast and so close to the edge, that I can scare the **** out of my uke, even experienced ukes. I can also pull them off in full randori, against a fully resisting opponent. However, in randori, I give uke some slack for safety sake. But, the key is, I know exactly how much slack I gave him, and can take it away just as easily.

( side note: I have never hurt an uke with these techniques )

"However the more sporting styles, like BJJ and Judo, can practice what they do full speed, all day, without hurting each other. " This idea came from Kano, in inventing Judo. Thus, he removed many of the dangerous moves from Judo, and was very successful. When his student taught the Gracies, they put back many if not all of the dangerous techniques into what is now BJJ. The Brazilians originally felt that they should be able to use any technique out there, and practice it with a fully resisting opponent. Hence, they called their system Jujitsu not Judo. ( this info can be found in the history section of the BJJ book recently published, featuring Royler and Renzo Gracie. ) I think only since modern "NHB" matches, with too many rules, have these techniques been lost from BJJ. Competitors started using the rules to win, instead of Martial Arts and more rules came around to make the MMA matches politically correct. I would consider true BJJ a traditional Martial Art, as its roots go straight back to Kano in a very easily tracable fashion. Kano, Maeada ( spelling it from memory), Gracie. However, the sport BJJ I would consider modern. How can you tell the difference? Do you learn and practice small joint manipulation on resisting opponents? Stuff like finger and thumb locks, neck cranks, strikes, both kicks and punches? They are all a part of BJJ, I have been shown where they fit in by BJJ folks. ( in fact their positional dominance, makes their strikes extremely effective and even deadly, if they would practice them )

Again, the traditional Martial Arts has techniques that build to much higher things than just holding someone down for the police to come, or the referee to break it up. These more dangerous techniques can be practiced at full speed and used in randori practice against resisting opponents, the Gracies proved this back when they started their system of jujitsu. The difference between being able to pull off the techniques or not when the chips are down, is how you train the techniques. The difference between traditional Martial Arts is that the techniques build up to powerfull battlefield worthy techniques instead of just "NHB" techniques. Those "NHB" techniques are just the tip of the iceberg.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Interesting post, you state your position quite well, I may need to digest this a little before I respond.

A questions though, are you talking about breaking a neck with a strike? From your description I am picturing you cupping a person's head while their body is on the floor, and delivering some type of strike? Is that right?

I stated before in another thread that you need a healthy dose of BOTH traditional methods and sporting methods to fully reach your potential.

In my years of martial arts I have met some traditional martial artists that I sure don't want to tangle with. I have also met some that were horrible and living in a fantasy world. On the flip side, I have met some sporting martial artist that can tie me in knots while eating a sandwhich and talking on the phone. I have also met some that were horrible and would get killed in the street.

It's also intersting that you consider BJJ a traditional art. I started learning it in 1996, and I remember learning how to pass a guard with headbutts. Now that the tournaments have caught on here, the school I train at teaches how to stall when you are ahead on points. It's one of the reasons I don't go very often anymore. I have never really been interested in sport BJJ and now that is all they do.

[wab25]

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A questions though, are you talking about breaking a neck with a strike? From your description I am picturing you cupping a person's head while their body is on the floor, and delivering some type of strike? Is that right?
=========================

Exactly right, cupping the back of their head and turning it to the side, away from you and up till it stops moving. Then palm strike threw the chin. If they have hair, its even easier. The tricky part is staying on balance during the throw, then catching their head on their way down, so the strike happens as they hit the ground. Timing is everything, and don't put any power into the strike until you get everything else right, if you you want to keep your uke.

I think we are in agreement about how to train, and what techniques to train.

As far as BJJ being traditional, they can trace their art back to the samuri very cleanly, much better than most other "traditional" arts.

I agree with you completely on the sport side. Headbutting your way thru the gaurd or neck cranking out of it work great for me. The sad part about removing these from train is that they are so easy to counter, or prevent, if you are looking for them. If you never train with them, you will never see it coming.

[swdw]

From a post I did in another topic area:

I train in a traditional style. The style is one of the branches of Okinawan Goju.

My expereince has been that eclectic styles were usually started by someone who was in too much of a hurry to stick around and learn in a systematic structured manner. I have a copy of an old article called "Reinventing the wheel" which points out some eye opening facts. I'll mail a copy to anyone interested.

Although I train in what eclectic martial artists call an "outdated" style, I have been welcome with open arms by the local Marine recruiters and reservists to do an occasional seminar. The chief Marine Corps martial arts instructor in the Colorado Reserve/Recruiting District gave the ok for me to do so because he felt I taught "the real thing".

I have students and friends who took eclectic martial arts bash the training until I show them things in the basics and kata that they had no idea existed. These are principles I teach at white and yellow belt that they didn't know after several years of training.

Every one of my Sensei's students that's had to defend themselves on the street has done so successfully- some were only 6th or 7th kyu at the time.

There are many things ridiculed in the traditional arts because of a lack of knowledge or understanding. It invariably seems that part of the reason for this is traditional instructors trying to make many of the principles one of the "secrets" they only pass on to a select few. Doing so limits the effectiveness of a traditional art on the street. This is a reacurring theme that I've seen among frinds that are traditional martial artists that is very saddening.

In addition, the watering down of traditional arts because of sport competition is creating a legitimate gripe about the applicability of a traditional art on the street. Distance for tournament fighting and street fighting are not the same. Another problem-the overcommitment of a technique in point sparring can leave a practitioner wide open to a number of counter techniques when used on the street. Eliminating takedowns, sweeps, grabs and joint locks in tornaments causes a person to be ill prepared for the street. Fighting with full protective gear often leads to throwing many ineffective techniques.

Personally, I'll put my money on an experienced street fighter/gang member over a tournament sparring champ everytime.

Well, there's my 2 cents