10-22-2003, 04:26 #1MartialWarriorGuest
Patterns - The truth behind them , in my own point of view;)
Q:What are patterns needed for?
Lots of people will say that patterns/forms are useless , and a waste of energy and time, but what's the real truth behind them?
Patterns/Forms are the guidelines or manuals , of a style. But , what is the point of doing those patterns/forms ? How can they help you become a better martial artist?
As i told eariler , patterns/forms are the guidelines and manuals of our styles. Patterns hold the value of our style. But they can't be used in a fight , like they are. Forms hide many tehniques , we don't even know or ignore. Actually we know about them , but we just practise them typically. The truth is that forms should be practised in a different manner , than a typical dance. Forms should be broken down in tehniques and to be worked out with partners , then those tehniques could be used in sparring or a real life or death situation. But only a very few amount of schools , teach or work out forms/patterns properly. If you 've ever thought of it, there must be a reason for them existing in our styles. The reason is that a teacher could teach his students faster and easier, than he could teach them those tehniques one by one. Also an other advantage of the forms is for us to remember the tehniques easier. Forms are like the DNA for our art. So what is my point? Forms are more than what they look like they are.
What is your opinion on the subject? Wanna add anything else?
All answers are appricieted.
10-22-2003, 05:30 #2
Systema (for one) has no "patterns" or "kata" as it is not based upon techniques, but rather principals.
The "manual" as you say is taught through practice of principal application - there are no set movements, just prinicpals on *how* to move. It is up to individual student to take that prinicpal and make it their own.
No two people in a Systema school will fight the same... they will share characteristics of *how* to fight, but they will never have the *same* movements.
Even between Vasiliev and Ryabko - two completly different fighters, who took the same *hows* and figured out their own applications.
10-22-2003, 08:37 #3
Forms can be seen as teaching method for different aspects needed/wanted to gain in MA... focusing, moving, precision... there is some art(s?) having form-based exercises, and still claim that there is no hidden level in these forms; what you see is what you get ... if we think there's some bunkai level, the level can be also the connection to history of art ... looking bunkai can lead - on technical level - at least to two direction: to figure out how form can be applied by own, pre-gained knowledge; and to figure out how it is interpreted in the past of art. First may lead to too prolonged assumptions from physical/physiological resemblance (if my hand move a bit similar way in doing some throw and some blocking movement of kata, does that necessarily prove that kata contains 'secret throwing technique'?); second may lead to seek some ancient, 'golden-age' wisdom of late masters...
Form is interesting method of training, and I like it deeply; however I admit that there are other methods for learning and gaining knowledge, too.
10-22-2003, 08:40 #4
I belive that forms (katas) are very important. They teach the student how to flow from one technique to another. katas teach the student to unite mind and body to achieve the physical goal.
take a look at the articles on www.Iainabernethy.com he has some interesting points about katas."By some terrible legerdemain he suddenly dislocates a shoulder, unhinges a joint, burst a tendon, or snaps a bone - without any apparent effort.He is much more than an athlete:he is an anatomist."
"Jiujutsu" by Lafcadio Hearn
10-22-2003, 09:16 #5ChattanGuest
Since I like to spend most of my training focused on Self-Defense I don't utilize forms or katas anymore. I understand the argument that forms hold many different kinds of techniques and applications but to "unlock" them you must train by using bunkai. My problem with this is that you can simply train the techniques without having to go through the "forms" to learn them. Instead of spending time memorizing a form and then training the techniques in their combinations and then isolating the techniques for new combinations you could have spent the time with the individual techniques in the first place and then put them together against a resisting opponent. As Sgathak said, techniques should not be made too specific but should allow the practioner to understand and utilize them based on their needs and attributes.
I am not as hard as others when it comes to forms training. I do feel that it is a link to the original training of the art and can will contain many techniques that may not be taught normally. However, utilization of forms depends on your goals. If the goal is self-defense then use is not necessary because of the nature of a violent encounter but if it is to get a deeper understanding of the martial art you are studying then they have a use. A form may contain techniques that are not useful in the realm of violence but may allow the practioner to learn very complex techniques and combinations. Again, it is based on the goals of the practioner.
Last edited by Chattan; 10-22-2003 at 09:50.
10-22-2003, 09:38 #6
Good arguments, good thinking.
Also, welcome to Budoseek, I hope you have here good time. Remember that forum rules demand you to sign all your posts with your real, full name.
Hope to see more your posts here,
07-14-2005, 08:33 #7
While I see the point that many progressive styles make about patterns/kata being impractical and unrealistic, I feel that this is only true when they are taken out of context. It is true that you can not learn to fight by only punching and kicking thin air, this is why focus shields, kick/punch bags and sparring were created; this is why when we learn to throw, lock or grapple we do so with a partner.
However, I personally see two major advantages to the practice of patterns. Firstly, I believe that the set positions, beginning and end of a pattern allow us to concentrate, not on our situation but on our technique, allowing us to perfect each kick and strike so that it becomes a flowing, natural reflex. Once we have techniques perfected to the point where they are comfortable and instinctive, their application in the ring or the street is effortless (both to execute and to control). I believe that patterns, therefore, compliment sparring and real-life conflict.
The second benefit I see in patterns is the mental discipline which is derived from their practice. It is all fine and well to practice day-in day-out on a shield or a partner if you want to learn to fight. In fact, it is a very good way to learn to fight, nothing beats the real thing. But the martial arts are not merely a quest to become a lethal force with a cabinet full of trophies. There is a mental journey at the heart of traditional arts that no amount of gym-work or sparring can provide. To discipline yourself so that you can learn a pattern, its strikes, its speed and its stances proves that you have exercised more than your body but your mind too.
This is the way I look at it: your body may win you trophies, but only your mind can earn you a black belt.
Well, that's my opinion anyway...
Last edited by BazTKD; 07-14-2005 at 08:37. Reason: Needed to make myself a bit clearer.Barry O'Mahony
07-14-2005, 09:39 #8
I think patterns are very useful in keeping new students motivated. My wife just received her yellow belt, and she is all excited to learn a new form. I think forms are just part of an acheivement process and a way to accomplish goals in steps. Plus, the testings require certain time and attendance considerations so it gives the student more appreciation of the time spent working towards their next rank. For the majority of people, I think you would have a larger number of people that would quit without having the forms to kickstart their training. If they simply showed up to class and worked on repetitive kicks and punches, and then are thrown into sparring it might be a little overwhelming for most.-
07-14-2005, 10:17 #9
Very good point Mr. EppersonBarry O'Mahony
07-15-2005, 15:53 #10
Forms are not needed in a system or program to learn to defend. However Forms (Hyung, Kata) are a very usefull traing tool that can help a practitioner reach a higher level of conditioning and familiarity with technique (if the patterns are taught well and the program is well balanced). I think you will find that people who train with forms like them and those who do not have them in thier system/program think they are a waste of time. I think forms are great!
07-16-2005, 09:50 #11
In the right way, Kata/forms are a great way to sharpen up the mechanics of your style's technique. It is a good way to strengthen muscles essential for good balance and help you feel your balance while moving in certain stances.
In the wrong way, kata is used to preoccupy students so the sensei/instructor can divert your attention from something else. It is also the source of much mystical/spiritual BS that a McDojo would want you to believe. Sadly, it just may be all a particular intructor knows about real situations!!!!Gary Fredericks
"Tall men come down to my height when I hit 'em in the body"
07-16-2005, 11:42 #12
In my experience, McDojo give very little attention to kata.
07-16-2005, 11:43 #13
Originally Posted by MartialWarrior
07-16-2005, 23:22 #14
Originally Posted by Gene Williams
07-17-2005, 00:31 #15
thank you Martial Warrior and all others for their input. this looks like one of the 'oldest' posts and the most relivant for my personal list of questions. it fills a sketched outline for many areas formaly completely 'blank' to my current understanding.
the comprehensiveness of what could exist in forms if properly trained and digested - blew me away. and i know that to 'be the point'.
i need to learn more about 'working forms', spend less time at my computer and more time in study.
i can add nothing more, than this:
small patterns can reveal greater ones.
the greatest can give illumination to all under-heaven.
Last edited by Black Fox; 07-17-2005 at 00:37.
07-17-2005, 06:52 #16
Originally Posted by AndrewSimonsenGary Fredericks
"Tall men come down to my height when I hit 'em in the body"
07-17-2005, 23:24 #17
If YOU can see and understand the applications, forms will work well, if not, they won't.-And knowing is half the battle- G.I.JOE