future of MMA... stand up? or grappling?

[black-gi]

As of late I have noticed that the mma world has quickly become a strikers game, the fans prefer strikers and promoters have put more "hype" on the strikers as well. Anyway just curious what everyone thought on this topic. The way I see it, I love stiking so I hope to see more of it!!



Jason Bryant
Tracy Karate

[Luebbers]

You are correct in that most MMA viewers like the excitement of the stand up fight, particularly in America. Furthermore, the rules of MMA have evolved, in my opinion, to give a little more weight the striking skills. For example, the addition of rounds means that it is easier for an unskilled grappler to simply stall on the ground until time runs out and the fight goes back up to the standing positions. Additionally, if there is too much inactivity, in the opinion of the officiator, the fight will be restarted standing up.

This being said, the ground game is still a critical factor in the realm of MMA and far more fights have been won through submission than through knockout. And even with these rules in place, a striker must possess the knowledge to at least avoid and defend against submissions when on the ground. While this may not seem like much, when faced with a grappling expert, it does take considerable skill to simply hold on and not fall into a submission.

As for the future, I feel that these are exciting times. It is now basically a universal maxim that any decent MMA fighter must cross train between striking and grappling. The skill level of the fighters has risen to such a level, that no one has enough difference in one discipline to offset complete ignorance in the other. By this I mean that there are no more Royce Gracies who are much better than their opponents on the ground that they can get away without throwing a punch; and vice versa. However, most fighters have a primary skill that they usually have history in, ie former wrestlers, former kickboxers, and then they complement those skills with those of the opposing discipline. I think in the next few years, we will see an evolution into a third generation of fighters who are becoming even more balanced in their style. I think this will lead to fewer style on style mismatches and make for a more exciting and interesting even all around.

But I could be wrong...

[black-gi]

Do you ever see one big show "out weeding" the other ( ufc vs pride) or maybe coming together? I think if this was to happen there would be better match making/matches. The ufc only has a handfull of good, top fighters and if they dont find tallent soon I dont see mma going anywhere. IMO



Jason Bryant
Tracy Karate

[rubberband]

Micheal,

I completely agree that the future holds a generation of well balanced fighters... it seems that NHB is becoming a style as we speak... everyone is learning what works most often and training hard on those skills which form a basis for NHB as a whole... I think the weeding out period is coming to an end and NHB is maturing into its own...

Jason,

the problem with the UFC is their contract and low money... you have to sign away your likeness (i.e. they own all pictures of you) and not fight for any other organization for a full year... all for maybe $1000 a fight... travel may or may not be included and no medical coverage... and you are not guaranteed fights during the year that they own you... and you don't get paid if you don't fight... Japan treats fighters much better, respects them, and pays the bills... the catch is some organizations put on "works" or matches where the winner is determined before the event and the loser gets paid... it is all about promoting a particular fighter... all about the image of the organization... Pride certainly is the best world class fight organization in terms of fighter quality... Pancrase has good money... of course one shouldn't overlook the fact that fight organizaions trade fighters like baseball teams trade players... once you are owned you do what you are told... including throw a match...

I think the future is really in the smaller events that have great heart... like King of the Cage and Hook and Shoot... these guys are entry level fresh faces who are hungry... sometimes the technique is lacking but other times it is just as good as the world class guys... the entry level events yet to come will help this sport grow... and the world class events will either change or die off...

I agree that grappling has made NHB boring to the average spectator and striking adds spice... I think the main reason grappling is boring is because of the Bjj hype... hopefully the growing generation of catchwrestlers and shootfighters will change the game to more action and less laying around... That is the real catch wrestlers and shoot fighters... not the guys making videos and never fighting...

take care, steve

[black-gi]

I totally agree with you but if the catch/shoot people dont come in to that light like they arnt now I can only see mma becoming a fad or freak show like the k-1 for revenue. But in my own opinion I see over time that mma tends to go better for the strikers. Due to cross training I feel that makes strikers more dangerous then other way around ( ground learning to strike) due to lack of action on ground ( with most ) and less fear of being hit... If this makes sense good, I am having a hard time explaining myself..... for those that do not understand here are the examples ( Wanderlei, Mirko, lidell) they are seeming to be the spotlight.


Jason
Tracy Karate

[rubberband]

Jason,

most grapplers these days hide in the safety of position wrestling... where they don't need any real skill and don't have to face taking strikes or real submissions... they are affraid of getting hit and affraid of getting leg locked... and affraid anything outside the realm of Bjj...

So, yeah, I see your point as long as grapplers keep training in the old and middle style of Bjj were they are lazy then NHB will pass out of favor and strikers will command the day... however, there are the Modern style Bjj people who are learning Catch wrestling, if not blatantly ripping it off and claiming it all came from Brazil, who no longer use the guard as the end all be all...

I don't think we will see to many real catchwrestlers until there are real submission grappling tournaments where points are not given for postion and the match ends with submission... and stalling rules are enforced... also real catch wrestling is hard to find in the U.S. and is in its infancy on the come back trail... some folks without any legitimate claim to a lineage of Catchwrestling have made videos and have thankfully gotten some attention put on Catch but they are way off base on their techniques and have no understanding of the underlying principles and strategies that set Catch apart from other forms of grappling... other groups have just adopted submissions from catch and a few strategies... this includes the Modern style Bjj guys and many shoot wrestlers and hybrid fighters... time will tell... Catch is the underdog in postion oriented so called submission tournaments... and is not widely recieved here in the states... also true catch is only being taught by 2 or 3 old timers that I know of... Billy Wicks, Dick Cardinal, and Carl Gotch...

it is an up hill battle... take care, steve

[Cliff Hargrave]

Originally posted by rubberband
Jason,

most grapplers these days hide in the safety of position wrestling... where they don't need any real skill and don't have to face taking strikes or real submissions... they are affraid of getting hit and affraid of getting leg locked... and affraid anything outside the realm of Bjj...

......Modern style Bjj people who are learning Catch wrestling, if not blatantly ripping it off and claiming it all came from Brazil, who no longer use the guard as the end all be all...

Steve,

That sure is a broad brush you are painting BJJ with. What if anything do you base this on? Have you ever competed? Rolled with a BJJ black belt?

And what is this catchwrestling you speak of? Where do you learn it from? Matt Furey? Tony Cecchine? Or some other unknown nobody that popped up when the grappling rage started, and claimed to have some unbeatable system taught to them by 80 year old pro wrestlers who invented worked fights?

I am sorry but I have seen the "catchwrestler" thing all over the internet for years and they have never produced anything in NHB or grappling. The closest thing to catch out there is someone like Sakuraba, and he and his guys have trained with lots of Judo and BJJ blackbelts over the years.

Believe me I am far from a BJJ jock rider too. Even though I train in it I am first a kickboxer and combatives type guy. I just don't see how you get off insulting BJJ like that without offering any evidence, examples, or anything. It reeks of bad taste and makes you sound like some kind of condesending know-it-all.

[rubberband]

Hey Cliff,

fair questions... I have competed... won some and lost some... lost to points mainly and have been choked a few times... I have not competed since June 2002... I am currently putting my energy into refining my skills and learning more about traditional catch wrestling... to my knowledge I have not rolled with any Bjj blackbelts... but I have never faught at a level below advanced... so every one I have faught has been training for atleast three years... I have respect for the art of Bjj... just as I have respect for a poisonous snake... I just don't like the way Bjj sets itself up as submission fighting when really all the practitioners want to do is score position points... all of my views are based on my experience and observation at tournaments...

The catch wrestling I speak of is the real catch wrestling that evolved from European folk wrestling and made its way to the U.S. where a man named Martin Burns added leg locks to the mix and began fighting all comers to prove his new style... since he seemed to "catch" his opponent the term Catch as Catch can was applied to the art...

I learned it from Billy Wicks... and trained with Johnny Huskey and Chris Rogers... I continue to study under Mr. Wicks and am currently seeking instruction from Dick Cardinal... my lineage is Billy Wicks who learned from Henry Kolln who learned from Martin Burns...

Sakaraba is linked to Catch wrestling through Fujiwara who trains/ed under Carl Gotch...

I dont' get off insulting Bjj... I was making a point about old and middle style Bjj (terms I picked up from Saulo Ribiero last June) and was actually making points that Saulo made in a discussion He, Chris Rogers, and myself had at an after fight party about the future of grappling while sitting on the bumper of his car... I didn't want to use his name for fear of misquoting him or making myself seem like a know it all...

evidence?... if you can't see it, you might be it... as a Bjj guy the rules favor your technique and style... as a catch wrestler whos art contains neck cranks and bent knee leg locks as a mainstay, which are illegal in every tournament I have been to or heard of including the national championships, the whole position point thing and limitations of submissions looks like a game to me... a marketing ploy that doesn't show the weakness of Bjj...

bad taste!... conceited know it all!... I am what I am...

be careful when you point your finger... three point back at you... your statements about catch wrestling are based on heresay... my statements are based on direct experience...

take care, steve

[Luebbers]

Back to the issue of a certain franchise taking over, I'm of the opinion that the UFC is in big trouble. I forget who said it, but he was right when he said that the UFC is losing their few big names fast. I saw a published list of fighters salaries on mmaweekly.com for UFC, and KOTC. If you aren't like a world-famous fighter, you don't make jack.

Pride is winning over in a big way. They pay their fighters better, treat them better, and the fans appreciate them more. Pride was putting on big lavish events long before the UFC adopted its pro-wrestling-esque introductions and while that doesn't add to the fight, as a fighter, I'm sure that kind of thing is appreciated.

The force I think we are really going to see in the next 12-18 months is K-1. They are the undisputed king of kickboxing tournaments, so they already have that market cornered and a steady cashflow to go with it. Now that they've entered the market of MMA/NHB fights, not only do they have the bankroll to get it going, they've got the name recognition and the steady fanbase. It's really brilliant if you think about it. By packaging the MMA fights with the kickboxing, you can suck the kickboxing fans into the MMA fight and vice versa. With this kind of cross-promotion, they can dramatically increase their PPV buys, giving them more budget, which they can use to lure better fighters...you see where this is going.

As for the BJJ/Hook n' Shoot/Catchwrestling phase, I think there could be a shift here as well. More and more NHB schools are focusing on general submission wrestling as opposed to BJJ specific. Furthermore, the Gracie family is trying to make a serious play towards making BJJ an Olympic sport. Part of this involves new rules to discourage stalling. Namely, if the competitors remain inactive in a given positiong for a given amount of time, they must restart in the reverse position. No more getting points for the takedown and the mount and just holding on till time runs out.

This, I think, will then go on to affect the way BJJ is applied in fighting. While many people seem to scorn the positional hierarchy system of BJJ and using points (not just submission) as a means of determining the victor, they should realize that this system was meant to be a guidebook for winning a fight. The positions that points are awarded for attaining are ones that would allow you more opportunity to strike (or submit) your opponent and cut down on his options. BJJ practioners have this system ground into them from day one, so they will follow it in a fight. Because tournament rules often let obvious stalling tactics slide, BJJ stylists carry that with them into a fight as well. These new rules could change all that.

Jesus, that was a lot longer than it needed to be. If you're reading this, thanks for not just skipping over this beast.

[Jeff Burger]

The stand them back up rule was put in place to please the $pectator$.

Few want to see to grapplers inactive on the floor.

Im glad they did do this though cause it forces competitors to be more well rounded.
Though it does further take away from the reality of their reality fighting.

Jeff

[rubberband]

Micheal,

I have heard the positions are awarded points because they supposedly make it easier to win a fight by striking arguement before... my point is in a grappling tournament, where there is no striking, these positions should mean nothing so the fighters will work for submission instead of stalling... as for the positions ending the fight by the guy on top striking the other into submission... this only works on guys who are affraid of getting hit and have no skill at escaping holds so they give up... as a guide line for winning a fight... I will not dispute that... it just shouldn't apply to a submission tournament... points for position is position wrestling...

I was not aware that k-1 is going to do NHB fights... that is good news...


Jeff,

didn't Pancrase have a time limit on the ground rule at one time...
I can't remember exactly... but if I recall from some old fights, fighters were stood up after a few minutes if there was not a submission... reality fighting is like reality TV close to real life but not really...

Take care, steve

[Cliff Hargrave]

Originally posted by rubberband
... I just don't like the way Bjj sets itself up as submission fighting when really all the practitioners want to do is score position points...

Me either, but - I think you are talking about sport BJJ and not all BJJ guys are sport BJJers. As a matter of fact there are a lot of us that very anti-sport due to the current "score a point and stall" stuff going on.

I learned it from Billy Wicks... and trained with Johnny Huskey and Chris Rogers... I continue to study under Mr. Wicks and am currently seeking instruction from Dick Cardinal... my lineage is Billy Wicks who learned from Henry Kolln who learned from Martin Burns...

Sorry I never heard about them. The only thing I found on a web search was some fake wrestling shows. Is there a web site where I could learn more about them?

evidence?... if you can't see it, you might be it... as a Bjj guy the rules favor your technique and style... as a catch wrestler whos art contains neck cranks and bent knee leg locks as a mainstay, which are illegal in every tournament I have been to or heard of including the national championships, the whole position point thing and limitations of submissions looks like a game to me... a marketing ploy that doesn't show the weakness of Bjj...

Not really a fair comparison. Regardless of what techniques you train in, if you allowed neck cranks and twisting and compression leg locks in tournaments then you would have an even smaller group of people competing. Those techniques are more dangerous and cause more seious injury in training and competition. That is why they were removed from Judo competitions 100 years ago and why you don't see them much now in BJJ and grappling.

Now to be a well rounded martial artist you should train in them but I don't see the need to use them in competition. I feel the same way about slamming a guard. Grappling competition exists simply to be a fun way to test your skills. It's not meant to be the end-all to training. You can do all the neck cranks and leg locks you want in NHB but I don't think they have a place in grappling competitions. Just like a kick to the face doesn't have a place in grappling competitions.

My opinion --> neck cranks and leg locks are low percentage moves . They have been legal in NHB since it's inception at UFC 1. How many fights end with them? Maybe an occaisional heel hook. You could count the neck cranks on one hand and they are usually from big guys like Coleman. I know you will come back and say something like people haven't been trained properly in them. Well until they are I will not put much faith in them.

bad taste!... conceited know it all!... I am what I am...

be careful when you point your finger... three point back at you... your statements about catch wrestling are based on heresay... my statements are based on direct experience...

take care, steve

That was "condesending know it all"

I am not pointing fingers at anything, just responding to your obvious attack on BJJ. I admitted up front that I never seen anything about catchwrestling and only read about it on the net. Your statements sound like "We are so much deadlier than BJJ because we do neck cranks and leg locks." It sounds like the eye gouging, groin grabbing bunch. I have met many BJJ guys that can leg lock and neck crank with the best of them. My statements were based on my 24 years in martial arts, which include judo, JJJ, seven years of BJJ, and training with "other" grapplers.

I think the biggest problem, and your "catch" guys will face it too if it ever grows, it that people will play for the rules. They do it in every martial art. You have to have some type of rules and you will get competitors that only train for those rules. They end up neglecting other aspects of marital arts. It has nothing to do with the "art" and more to do with the individual person and school. That is why I personally hate sport BJJ and will never compete in it.

That is one of the reasons I still like and train under Royce. People talk smack about him on the net about trying to get "special" rules in his NHB fights, but his special rules are LESS rules so the fight can go to a finish. His brother Rorion (love him or hate him) is experimenting with new sport BJJ rules that have have much longer time limits and much stricter point awarding. Don't know if it will ever catch on though.

Do we agree to disagree or what?

[Cliff Hargrave]

Originally posted by rubberband
Micheal,

I have heard the positions are awarded points because they supposedly make it easier to win a fight by striking arguement before... my point is in a grappling tournament, where there is no striking, these positions should mean nothing so the fighters will work for submission instead of stalling...

Oh one more thing. BIG difference in catch and BJJ as far as position first thing goes. The point awards for positions were to reward striking AND submission. In BJJ the policy is always position over submission. Having control over the other guy allows you to more effectively execute your set-ups, submissions, or strikes. It is not for strikes only.

I have read on the net that catch guys don't agree with this and feel they can attack from any position.

[rubberband]

Cliff,

edited: I just checked the old webpage... it seems to not exist anymore... Johnny Huskey once "worked" for Pancrase... and Chris Rogers has faught, and lost to, Saolo Ribiero and Jeff Monson... he actually faught Monson this past Saturday and lost to a neck crank... Billy Wicks was a carnival wrestler who became a prowrestler and enforcer/shooter, before becoming a LEO and instructor at a police academy...

my main concern is with the sport bjj people and the way the rules are set up... this thread was about sport fighting and its future... not combative Bjj... in catch we do not have a hierarchy of position... instead we use positional relationship and the "X" to let the opponent move into the submission... so the rules seem unfair to catchwrestlers who don't see the value in position... I have trained in NHB hybrid fighting and do see the value of postions for striking... however as you cited neck cranks and leg locks are dangerous for tournaments so they are thrown out for the sake of sport... so then why are points awarded for position? if the position makes it so much easier to get the submission then why doesn't the Bjj player just get the submission and end the fight... if the points were not awarded then he would have to... there is a movement started here in NC to between Catchwrestlers and Bjj players to award points for submission attempt as well... I think we actually agree on the problems of sport Bjj...

as you cited tournaments are not meant to be the end all be all or training... but they are the door way to recognition of a style... to the catch community it seems as though Bjj is closing out catch wrestlers with the rules of positional points... this is the problem... as long as the points are awarded the playing field will be biased toward Bjj and catch will not gain recognition and people such as yourself can come on the internet and speak of catchwrestlings inefficient moves because no catchwrestler has won any major tournament...


I do realize that Bjj has a combative side... and I know that the the higher up Bjj players are learning leg locks from Japan and from American catchwrestlers... I disagree that leg locks are a low percentage move... but I understand how they would appear to be a low percentage move when you only attempt them from bjj positions...

Neck cranks and leg locks are no more dangerous than any other submission...

you hear me saying Catch is deadlier than Bjj, because that is what you are looking to hear me say... but if you read the posts you will see that you are the one who keeps saying that... it is clear that you have no respect for catch or the 80 year old men who are trying to pass it on... your blind prejudice demonstrates a very closed mind for a man of your experience... and for a man who claims it comes down to the individual... you yourself say you have no knowledge of catch but then you put catch down as though you are the authority on everything wrong with catch and catchwrestlers...

catch guys do not care about position... and we practice submissions from positional relationships that would be seen as inferior in Bjj eyes...

the communication problem we have is that you can not see outside of your Bjj bubble.... you are judging Catch with Bjj standards and not seeing it as a unique art in its own right...

I find it interesting that you demanded to know if I have competed and then state that you refuse to... I really think you do not want to understand my points, but demand that I understand yours...

Let me try to say this as plain as I possibly can to straighten out any confusion...

Catch wrestling is different than Bjj... not better... just different... tournament rules favor Bjj... Catch wrestlers are not trained to make the points... Catch doesn't get the recognition it deserves because the rules get in the way of catch people advancing to major tournaments... Bjj people use the lack of Catchwrestlers at high level tournaments against catchwrestling...

In closing, I think every modern grappler owes a debt of grattitude to Royce and the Gracies... I started my ground fighting training in Bjj and Judo... I chose catchwrestling because I believe in keeping things alive that deserve to be kept alive... Catch is different... the aged gentlemen who are passing it on are not phoney... they did make a living out of prowrestling at some point in their lives, but after wrestling as catchwrestlers and carnival wrestlers first... the skills are real... and come from real experience...

take care, steve

[Cliff Hargrave]

Originally posted by rubberband
the communication problem we have is that you can not see outside of your Bjj bubble.... you are judging Catch with Bjj standards and not seeing it as a unique art in its own right...

I find it interesting that you demanded to know if I have competed and then state that you refuse to...

First I have competed in lots of things including kickboxing, judo, and open grappling. I dont compete in "sport BJJ" because I don't like the rules. I have students that do though and they do quite well.

Second I am far from being in a BJJ bubble. I have studied and continue to study many different arts and will drop BJJ if I ever find something that addresses ground work better. The problem is I have never seen anything come close.

Now, YOU are the one that jumped on this thread about NHB and began insulting BJJ with statements such as BJJers being "lazy", "hide in the safety of position wrestling", "afraid of getting hit", "afraid of getting leg locked", "afraid of anything outside the realm of Bjj", "blatantly ripping off catch".

You are insulting a great art while attempting to elevate your own fairly unknown art. BJJ is probably the most tested art in modern times against other arts. It came to the forefront specifically by challenging and fighting other styles in no rules or minimal rules matches. It turned the modern martial arts world upside down and forced millions to at least acknowledge them, and maybe spend a little more time on a often negleted fighting range. Yet you make those statements above after even admitting that you have never even rolled with a black belt in the art.

BTW this is not the first thread where you came across insulting and condesending sounding, while trying to promote yourself and your style. Just off the top of my head the full nelson thread comes to mind. If I am mistaken and that is just my misinterpretation of your writing style then I apologize, but that is just how I see it.

As far as not respecting catch or the 80 year old carnival wrestlers that are just now teaching it, I have never even seen it. I have only read what people write on the internet about it.

As I said before, we just need to agree to disagree, but I will not sit quietly and watch you trash someone elses art while trying to promote yourself. Go to the Underground if you want to do that.

[John Bennett]

Steve, you did say...

"...grappling is boring is because of the Bjj hype... hopefully the growing generation of catchwrestlers and shootfighters will change the game to more action and less laying around... "

and

"most grapplers these days hide in the safety of position wrestling... where they don't need any real skill and don't have to face taking strikes or real submissions... they are affraid of getting hit and affraid of getting leg locked... and affraid anything outside the realm of Bjj... "

and

"as grapplers keep training in the old and middle style of Bjj were they are lazy "

and

"there are the Modern style Bjj people who are learning Catch wrestling, if not blatantly ripping it off and claiming it all came from Brazil,"

and

"other groups have just adopted submissions from catch and a few strategies... this includes the Modern style Bjj guys"

and

" I have respect for the art of Bjj... just as I have respect for a poisonous snake.

and

" I just don't like the way Bjj sets itself up as submission fighting when really all the practitioners want to do is score position points... "

and

" the whole position point thing and limitations of submissions looks like a game to me... a marketing ploy that doesn't show the weakness of Bjj... "

I can see why this generally derogatory and insulting tone would rub Cliff the wrong way because, as a BJJ guy, it kinda does me too.

There's about a month's worth of issues in there that need addressing.

In your latter posts, you and Cliff agree on many things. Perhaps it's time to start with a clean slate and each of you clearly state your overall thesis in a non-deragatory manner.

[rubberband]

John,

I did say the things you listed however in the context of a conversation... context is critical to undestanding... to be insulted is to react out of emotion... this course of conversation has helped me to better understand what issues I do have with the grappling scene and with Bjj... I only write what I believe...



Cliff,

I am what I am...


take care, steve

[rubberband]

It is always good to visit the past and see things through fresh eyes... I can see where my word choice might have been offensive when taken out of context... I have the problem of making subtle connections that I find amusing but others never see... I also can feel the sting of what I percieved as an insult to my teacher... I think the only way to clarify my statements would be to point out that my points were really more directed to sport Bjj... since writing this thread I have rolled with a Brazilian 2nd degree black belt in judo who's teacher was also a Bjj black belt... he also trained students who faught Bjj in Brazil... I caught him with a heel hook... he caught me with an arm lock... and we called it a draw...

Recently I have been discussing the future of Catchwrestling with my teacher and some of my friends... it seems that the way I wrestle and the way most people percieve catchwrestling are very different... So I have disassociated myself from catchwrestling and instead use the more friendly term submission wrestling... strange how we grow...

take care, steve

[Andrew Green]

Does anyone else find it kinda funny that lineage of traditional Catch wrestling has come up

It's a sport.

Follow the rules and you are playing it.

Was Ali not a "real" boxer cause he did it different then those before?

Whatever...

Position is important, it's that simple.

Catch wrestling was a carnival thing when those 80 year olds where doing it. Why didn't they hold position and work? Cause they needed to make money and draw spectators. So they started making it more entertaining and "working" fights.

[Andrew Green]

Back to the question....

The future - More integration.

That means fighters learning better how to use strikes to set up throws, positional advances, submissions, etc. Learning how to strike better on the ground and in a clinch. Learning how to strike better without being taken down.

I do think this will make the ground game more interesting, as people learn to pass guard using punches, rather then simply stay and gain points with weak punches... and other advances and submissions set up with strikes.