Knife fighters try this.....

[wab25]

lonewolf12563, the reason I used this guys teaching is because he has killed people with his knife. Many times the people had more than just a knife. ( though I don't know how many saw him coming, if any )

There are a few things that you can't understand about what he did, without being on the other side of it. The biggest, is how FAST it all happened. The next, was the intent. Had he put any pressure on the knife and I would have bled.

As he was cutting the arteries, he was using the point of the knife. ie stabbing through the left thigh, just inside the bone. Or he was ripping with the point on the way out. The knife has to come out before it can stab again, and it might as well be cutting.

My point, and his, was that you don't stop cutting till they are dead. Once you make your first cut, you NEVER stop. The knife follows your opponent from one stab to the next. In reality, it may not cut as you pull it across his chest to the neck or other target. But it might, depending on the sharpness of the knife, the power, the clothing the situation. If the knife leaves your opponent, it will NOT be cutting them.

As a side note, his knife had the tip broke off. I asked how it broke and he said that it got stuck in some guys back. If that story is true, it suggests that he was stabbing in a life or death situation.

[lonewolf12563]

Interesting story. If he is for real, which I have no doubt, he would agree with me. Having been there myself, although not a Seal, I am Army!, I do not advocate most of the mindset or ideas in this thread. Running will work but not all the time. Then what do you do, push your wife infront of the blade. Maybe she is a faster runner. Most of CQC is between 1 and 7 feet. No time to run. No time to think. Just do. So It is very important to have the right mindset. It is the only way to get the momentum back in your favor when you are already behind the power curve. Anyone in the community has been taught that brain power is more valuable than fancy techniques. Brain power being the right mindset. And anyone who has been there will tell you how basic the aggression is. So all this fancy stuff is bs. Sorry but it is. Brute caveman aggression and the will to win is what matters. Ed

[wab25]

Ed, I think we are in agreement, just missunderstanding each other slightly. My friend was saying to do the damage with a stab. Only he added that when you move from one stab to the other, you should cut your way over to the next target. Maybe the knife actually cuts and maybe it doesn't, but at least you are maximizing the damage. Also, by keeping the knife pressed into your opponent as you move it, can instantly change to a stab by reversing direction, or the opponent moving into it. ( you will most likely not be stabbing a great target, but at least you will have your handle ) The other thing he was saying, was not to think in terms of stab 1, then stab 2 followed closely by stab 3. Make one cut, one big, damaging cut that continues until your opponent is dead.(regardless of how many stabs it really takes) Get to the best target you can and stab, cut to the next if he is still not dead, continue until he is dead.

The thing I want to add is that training does help, if you train correctly. You can even get some more complicated moves to work through effective training. One of the lists we study can be translated to "scroll of the dead." The idea here is that you train these techniques with so much energy and commitment, that your body would respond automatically in that way, even if you were dead. "You may stab me through the heart and kill me, but I will still break your arm, throw you down and bury the knife through your back, because thats how my body reacts to that attack." Now, that may not be realistic, however, by training for that, these movements become our reactions to the point that they take no thought. Example: falling. We practice our falls so much that now when I take a fall, even outside the dojo, I don't even think about how I land until afterwards, yet I still fall correctly. I was playing basketball the other day, and as I went for a layup, my feet were taken out from under me. I took a flat fall from about 5-6 feet high onto a basketball court. I popped right up and kept playing, it actually felt softer than our dojo mat. It wasn't till a few minutes after that I realized that I had landed in a high back fall, protecting my head.

Yes, facing a knife on the street is very different. But, it is also the same. I can train myself how to respond to certain things, like certain attacks. I can train hard enough that my body will just respond, without thought. The trick then, is to pick the right moves to train. Instead of training to simulate encounters with the most possible realism, train to make your movement become a reaction, something that just happens with no thought at all. That way, when the situation happens on the street, you can be scared, your brain can freeze, but your body will react.

[Jeff Burger]

"they wait for you to bleed out before they come close again'

This is what they mean by "like a shark".
A shark will bites its pray quick and then back off an wait for it to die, instead of holding a thrashing an fighting back victim that could hurt him.


"or flying thru the air with my Ninja mask on"
You have a ninja mask?!

Groin...
I dont think Id call the actual "package" a prime target, but the inner thigh is.
Problem with the package area is its surrounded by bone that could stop penetration.

Obviously if you can flee then by all means flee.

I dont carry any weapons any more cause my state laws suck.
I use to carry CS tear gas and wavy serration Spyderco ( Endura).
This wavy serration is AMAZING on a slash ...again try it on the leg of lamb and see for yourself.

Jeff

[kaliace]

Ed,

I hate to run, that is why I learned how to fight. Ha!

I agree understanding the knife is very important. Just learning one simple technique could save your life. Also, as I am sure most of you have seen, a knife attack is rarely where the opponent pulls out his blade and then you good look at it, then you start to fight. It is usually a quick pull, a couple of thrusts and you never saw it coming. Again understanding the knife and being aware is what will save you.

I will have to disagree with the “Brute force” Idea. If you use that kind of energy against a skilled knife fighter you will be sliced up like an Easter Morning roast. There are some techniques that might give you a chance, but the best chance is to avoid it all together. I am a big guy, and that has been the hardest thing for me to get over, my size. I used to think I could power though anything, but in my training I found out that is exactly what will get me dead. It is more important to be fluid, soft until attack, and to not give off so much energy. It is still the hardest part of my personal training.

Michael G Olive

[rubberband]

I believe there are three distinct types of combat that include a knife...

1. Trying not to get killed by a knife, defense against including running

2. dueling with a knife, what most people teach as knife fighting

3. killing with a knife, what most people don't get much experience with


in the first type there are many misconceptions but the rules of any combat apply either get control of the fight or get away...

in the second it seems the knife itself is stressed for parry and intricate angles are employed to whittle away at your opponent until you get the "win"... this is also the realm of tricks of human perception..

in the last type the techniques that I have heard work, secondhand from a friend who learned his craft from a prison gang leader, include simply getting control of the other guy and killing him before he kills you... either by creating an opening or sneaking up on him (ninja mask optional)...


it seems everyone is talking about all of these things as though they are interchangable... hollistically we can understand their differences and similarities but we can never agree that they are the same thing... and they are not... each is different... and each requires a different type of training...

the knife is an icon of fear... so it is easy to market knife fighting... anything taught in a class helps releave the fear... helps the student to fool themselves into thinking knife combat is nothing to be affraid of... security is an illusion based on ones own beliefs about how they would handle a bad situation... being "trained" is all most people need to feel safe... to bad it is not that simple...

take care, steve

[Makoto]

if someone is coming to attack you why not slice their face? if i'm put in a position to use a weapon it'll probably be due to my life being threatened in which case i'd go for maximum damage.

it's like my gampa's philosophy towards guns:

"if you have to shoot someone it better be to kill" he's retired HPD. that's why i don't like fighting people. i see violence as a last resort but when it's employed it'll be to do as much damage as humanly possible.

i mean, if you cut some guys face he'll see blood (if he can see at all) but won't be able to survey the damage and it might freak him out while the same cut on the arm or torso might not have him worried at all.

am i way off base or what?

[Musubi Dojo]

My uncle the copper has told me about gang members that would cut a person's forehead with a boxcutter or razor so that they would have blood in their eyes and be unable to see to fight back. I don't have any personal experience with this though.

Cheers
c

[Jeff Burger]

Cutting the forehead to take away vision is something we try to do with elbows.
The forehead cuts easy and bleeds alot.

I know a guy who said he tried to cut a guys forehead with his watch.
It worked but the guy was on top of him and the blood came down on him.
Bothered him more than his opponent.

Jeff

[ACP]

Lone wolf, so you are a combat veteren I'm guessing from the 2nd war or you just read that whole counter bayonet somewhere?

I also teach defense of the self, and I agree with you almost completely. Your goal is to go home and that is the bottom line, that's also what I teach. Except there are so few people that have the dicipline or the determination to actually learn REAL defense and not flash. At least that's the problem I'm having anyway.

Adam C. Powers

[Makoto]

what i meant was that in most cases it might help freak out an assailant more than anything. if i had to do anything i'd probably kick him in the jimmy to begin with. all these scenarios are way too controlled anyhow.

we do not have movie moments in this life... fighting to win is the only way.

[BUDO BULLDOG]

Great thread!

When I was taught knife defense we where taught via two perspectives – the defender and attacker. This method was very educational.

One strike one kill was our attacking principle. Not that you stop after the first attack put each strike had a purpose or you did not utilize them. We also learn a great amount of circulatory, pulmonary and nervous system anatomy.

The defense was really no different and the principals where the same. You also added bone and joint anatomy to the equation.

We also learned first aide, just in case if you where so luck to survive an attack. The realism was that in a knife attack you will cut and bleed – the only question is how much and how bad.

No matter how you slice it – knife defense should be serious and realistic.

Question to the group – Have you ever notice that when you practice knife defense that the students in class change their attitudes or focus. This change is actually for the better in that they are more focus and attentive to the significance of detail?

Ed Barton

[Jeff Burger]

"No matter how you slice it – knife defense should be serious and realistic."
ba da dum


"Have you ever notice that when you practice knife defense that the students in class change their attitudes or focus?"

Somewhat.
I think people go into hand to hand with the idea of the could survive getting hit once or twice.
As where each strike with a knife is going to do damage.

This was the reason my first Kali instructor taught hand vs knife first.
He wanted us to have respect for getting hit an not go in with a "get the best of the exchange" attitude.

Jeff

[ACP]

All right guys I carry a knife for protection, but I would hate to ever have to use it. I studied under Kali and that's all the knife training I have. I have always thought the idea or use of the knife is to kill, so arteries are always my primary targets for cuts. I would never pull a knife unless I was in the ultimate danger of losing life or limb. In which case might be too late because there is a BIG difference as stated above between a duel and real Self Defense.

Jeff,
I don't really train a whole lot of stabbing considering the blade has to penetrate clothing in most cases.

I know a friend who cut a guys forehead with a case cutter in the subway in New York as he was being mugged and it stopped the guy cold. The guy went into immediate shock I guess because of losing his sight due to large amounts of blood sheeting down his face.

Adam C. Powers

[Jeff Burger]

"I don't really train a whole lot of stabbing considering the blade has to penetrate clothing in most cases. "

So might a slash. If its leather or jean the stab would work better.

Im not saying never slash.

The slash across the forehea is a good move. But it may not stop alot of people.
In the case of the guy I mentioned earlier he was on the bottom, so the blood poured down on him.

Jeff

[ACP]

Jeff, I train for cuts to the forehead, the neck, cheek, and groin. I train stabs to the face as a general and the throat. They are almost always open to slashing. I never limit myself, but I concentrate more on those cuts.

I train and live in Florida, I teach and practice training for your evironment.

No leather coats here, but a lot of flip flops. And since I moved here I have included foot stomps into my training and teaching.

As far as the Forehead cut, I don't expect to stop anyone, just create more opportunity.
I'm a firm believer in pain not stopping everyone. That's why I teach striking for effect.

[Jeff Burger]

"I train and live in Florida, I teach and practice training for your evironment."

excellent

"I'm a firm believer in pain not stopping everyone"

Ditto
I like to think as if Im fighting a robot. Pain doesnt matter.
Go for the eyes. Maybe they can take the pain maybe they wont panic...but they still cant see.
I have seen people take some phenominal amounts of pain. I dont want to see one take the pain I inflict and keep coming.
Just shut them down.

Love foot stomps. Very under estimated technique.

Jeff

[ACP]

"Go for the eyes. Maybe they can take the pain maybe they wont panic...but they still cant see." Jeff, I think this the begining of a beautiful friendship.

That's what we call striking for effect.

Adam C. Powers

[maxpress]

i think the main thing is to know what to slice and what to stab.
ive taken anatomy and physiology (for nursing) and there are places a stab would take a back seat to a slice like the carpal tendons of the wrist.
and a slash would do nothing against a heart attack (no pun intended) because of the great strength of the thoratic cartlige as anyone thats given cpr can attest to.
when to do what is the best thing i can think of but if your in a blind panic i would stab repetitivly for the gut. you will get your knife stuck in the ribs of the enemy if you aim for the thoratic triangle.
my preference if i come upon a knife attack is a .45 anyway or maybe a .38 so i might not be the one to talk to and i think ill shut up now.

chris mangold

[Sochin]

Groin...
I dont think Id call the actual "package" a prime target, but the inner thigh is.
Problem with the package area is its surrounded by bone that could stop penetration.

Can you see yourself in the defendant's box with some guy suing you for cutting off his dick?? Ouch! he could be Mr. Nsaty himself but no one will side with you!

The discussion has two directions: 1. are you trying to get him to stop what he is doing or 2. are you trying to kill him. Very different tactics are necessary for these two strategies.

BUT, above all, if you ever use your knife to defend yourself, your life as you know it is over. It will all be different from then on. Totally.

About making only one cut, I can't beleive anyone would stand there and take that kind of damage without reacting except in a training situation where you want to see what the teacher is going to do next. It is unrealistic to think no one will react to cuts like that. The first stab alone will send someone back, no?