Please help me gather info.....

[tkdcanada]

Okay, I'm going to try this again from a different angle. I didn't get many responses last time and I'm still kind of trying to figure out where to go with this subject. I have to write an essay about women in martial arts. What is their place, how have they progressed over time, what do they contribute, etc... So to help me get the information I need, I'm going to ask some directed questions and I would very much appreciate if as many of you (especially those who have been around a while) could anser them, to give me some information (facts) to base my essay on. I haven't been exposed to much beyond my own experiences in my own Dojang (the only one I've ever attended) and I've only been involved in martial arts for about three years at that. So, here goes....

1-What percentage of your school would you say consists of women?

2-Aside from the obvious differences between men and women, can you see any consistent differences in the way women go about their training compared to men?

3-What would you say is the most valuable contribution that women bring to MA?

4-In your experience, do you find that women are well accepted in MA by men, or are they treated differently? If they are treated differently, how so?

5-For those who have been around a very long time (and anyone else who has something to contribute here), do you find that the amount of women who practice MA has risen over the years, declined, or there has been no noticeable difference?

6-In general, do women seem to excel in a certain area of MA compared to men?

7-Finally, for you women out there, what are your personal experiences in this domain??

Okay. With the answers to these questions, I hope to have enough concrete information to get me going on a roll with my essay (which is due in two weeks!!). Please, please, please help me out. Anyone is welcome to answer these questions....female students, male students, instructors, assistant instructors, instructors that have years, even decades of experience, people who have been around the block (done different MA's, etc...). All I ask is that you please give me information that is as accurate as possible. Thank you in advance!

[Luebbers]

I'll be answering these questions based on my BJJ school.

1-What percentage of your school would you say consists of women?

Very small. Quite often there are no women in the class, when there are, there is usually just one in a class size of about a dozen.

2-Aside from the obvious differences between men and women, can you see any consistent differences in the way women go about their training compared to men?

Most women seem to train well in my BJJ class. Because they, unlike men, rarely focus on the power or strength in a technique, tend to pick up quicker on performing the technique correctly instead of trying to power out of something or force an application.

3-What would you say is the most valuable contribution that women bring to MA?

Aside from the aforementioned attention to technique, it seems that women check their ego a little easier than men. Even when they know they are beginners, men hate to be emasculated (especially by a woman) by defeat, particularly in a public place. Women seem to put that aside and focus on learning easier.

4-In your experience, do you find that women are well accepted in MA by men, or are they treated differently? If they are treated differently, how so?

I have to say that in class, I have never noticed any discrimination and, if anything, the men seem to respect the women more for taking up martial arts in the first place. However, from reading posts on a different forum, I have noticed a very sexist attitude in general that bleeds over into their views on martial arts. I should note that this is an MMA/Kickboxing/Grappling forum and that a disturbingly high proportion of the posters not only seem to behave with a certain amount of chauvinism, but seem to have a lower regard for female practitioners of the art, unless said female has done something over and beyond what one would normally need to achieve in order to "prove" oneself.

5-For those who have been around a very long time (and anyone else who has something to contribute here), do you find that the amount of women who practice MA has risen over the years, declined, or there has been no noticeable difference?

N/A

6-In general, do women seem to excel in a certain area of MA compared to men?

Again, I think the combination of ability to stowe the ego and the focus on precision vs. strength tends to make women very technical fighters who are also very good learners, particularly from their own mistakes. This is obviously a very broad statement.

7-Finally, for you women out there, what are your personal experiences in this domain??

N/A

[Jeff Butterworth]

tkdcanada,



Here is a guy's perspective;

I began training in the early 80's, and trained off and on until 1999 when I returned to serious uninterrupted training. My daughter and I both earned our black belts together this past December.

When I first started TKD in the early 80's there was only one female in the whole school (of over 200 students). She was 20 something years old, trained hard, and was well accepted by all the guys.

There were no females in the Karate school where I trained (1980). By the late 80's, I had moved to Halifax and at the TKD School there, the classes had about 10-25% ladies, including my wife. Again, they were seen as equals.

At the school where I now train the ratio is almost 50%-50% (from the kids class to the adults), and I would say that in all aspects of training the women in our club train with the same intensity as the men. From my observations (in my own training and at tournaments) I believe women are accepted as "equals in training".

Good luck with your essay and we all look forward to reading it.


Jeff Butterworth

[tkdcanada]

Thank you Jeff and Luebbers for your replies. Complete answers like that are exactly what I need so that I can make sure I get my facts straight. I was beginning to think no one would help me out here I really, really hope that more of you can help me by responding with your experiences and insights. Please don't worry about being politically correct. I want accurate information, not what you think I or anyone else wants to hear. Thank you again and I look forward to more replies.

"Good luck with your essay and we all look forward to reading it"

Thank you. I would conside posting it if I think people are interested. The feedback would actually be interesting to receive.

PS: I just realized I can't edit the original post that I started this thread with, and I want to add a question, so I'll just do it here.

8- Of the women that attend your school or that you know practice a martial art, what would you say is the average age? Is it mostly teenage girls and kids, women in their twenties, middle age, or no noticeable pattern? As well, do women seem to stick with it, making it a way of life or more or less come and go, not treating it as a long-term "quest" (for lack of a better word). In other words, do they make it to BB or quit before they reach any kind of concrete knowledge.

[Lisa]

1-What percentage of your school would you say consists of women?

Very small percentage. If you include the young girls from the children's classes I would have to guess approximately 10 - 15%. However, that being said, the majority of the longest attending students in the school are women both in the adult and children's classes.

2-Aside from the obvious differences between men and women, can you see any consistent differences in the way women go about their training compared to men?

To quote Luebbers "tend to pick up quicker on performing the technique correctly instead of trying to power out of something or force an application." The ability to muscle out is not an option for us so we adapt and move on quicker. Men usually come into our school knowing what they want to train and what they don't. I was speaking with my instructor the other night about how women come to his school wanting to do kick boxing and do not want to come near the grappling part of the class. I know that I started out kickboxing and now would rather grapple. We come to class with preconceived notions and it takes a while for those to fall to the way side for us. Trust is a big issue, or at least was for me . Men, I find don't seem to have that problem.

3-What would you say is the most valuable contribution that women bring to MA?

I can only tell you what I hope I bring to our school. Men come and train, don't really talk or get to know each other. I have a tendancy in my school to try to get to know the people I train with. I probably do it for myself more than anything. If I know a little about the person I am sparring with I feel I can trust them more. Many of our adults also have children in the kid's classes and the school tends to have a "big family" atmosphere. Being one of the longest attending students I try to make the new people feel comfortable when they are first in class. It helps them relax and helps me feel secure.

4-In your experience, do you find that women are well accepted in MA by men, or are they treated differently? If they are treated differently, how so?

In the beginning when grappling/sparring with a new male I sometimes get the feeling that he wonders what I am doing there. Maybe due to my age (I am 39 btw) I sometimes get quizzical looks from the new students the first couple of classes. Soon enough, they seem to become comfortable with me being in the class with them. Otherwise, I have seen no machoisms or bad attitudes towards women at our school at all.

5-For those who have been around a very long time (and anyone else who has something to contribute here), do you find that the amount of women who practice MA has risen over the years, declined, or there has been no noticeable difference?

N/A

6-In general, do women seem to excel in a certain area of MA compared to men?

I don't believe I have enough experience to really comment on what area women excel.

7-Finally, for you women out there, what are your personal experiences in this domain??

I love my mixed martial arts. I have tried karate, enjoyed it for a while and then needed something different. I am not knocking karate, it just wasn't for me anymore. I am 70 pounds lighter and in better shape then I have been in the past 15 years. I have found something that gives me personal satisfaction and a sport that I can share with my daughters.

8- Of the women that attend your school or that you know practice a martial art, what would you say is the average age? Is it mostly teenage girls and kids, women in their twenties, middle age, or no noticeable pattern? As well, do women seem to stick with it, making it a way of life or more or less come and go, not treating it as a long-term "quest" (for lack of a better word). In other words, do they make it to BB or quit before they reach any kind of concrete knowledge.

Mostly they are young girls, teenage girls usually don't want to do grappling with strange men. Like I said earlier, most of the long standing students in the school are women so, yes, we tend to stick with things longer, or at least that is what it seems in my school.

Hope my answers help... Good luck and I can't wait to read the final essay

[tkdcanada]

Thank you, Lisa! When I was first given this topic, I thought: "Sheesh, I'm not at all the activist type, how can I do this topic any other way." I generally hate the idea of arguing men vs women stuff. As I dig deeper, I realize it's not at all a man vs woman thing at all. The two are just different and this preliminary research is kind of interesting. Now, I'm finding that the topic will be pretty neat to write about (and I love to write). Albeit, I'm not getting the amount of responses I had hoped for (hint, hint, everyone )

BTW, I'm writing this essay because it is required for my black belt test. We all have two essays to write. The first topic is the same for everyone and the second topic is given individually to each person. Oh, did I mention it's due in two weeks?

[Mandeigh Wells]

I am not sure my answers will be much help to you but here's my tuppence worth anyway.........

1-What percentage of your school would you say consists of women?

pretty much most of it....at least 80 - 90% are female in our school.

2-Aside from the obvious differences between men and women, can you see any consistent differences in the way women go about their training compared to men?

Not really...some students are more conciencious but this doesn't seem to be gender specific.

3-What would you say is the most valuable contribution that women bring to MA?

Just being there in the grand scheme of things is a major contribution.

4-In your experience, do you find that women are well accepted in MA by men, or are they treated differently? If they are treated differently, how so?

Hard to say with a predmominantly female class. Although I know of females who have experienced a certain amount of prejudice from larger, male run organisations.

5-For those who have been around a very long time (and anyone else who has something to contribute here), do you find that the amount of women who practice MA has risen over the years, declined, or there has been no noticeable difference?

In my 10 years+ taijiquan there seems little difference, perhaps because of the way the art is percieved by the general public...it has always attracted more females.

6-In general, do women seem to excel in a certain area of MA compared to men?

not sure

7-Finally, for you women out there, what are your personal experiences in this domain??

I don't feel I have been treated as anything other than equal by my peers and especially when cross training, where I have been welcomed into a different style by male teachers. I have had a male 5th dan study in my class and treat me with the utmost respect. I know at times there have been allowances made for me, but I would prefer to think that has been due to other circumstances rather than gender.

oops I missed question 8:
8- Of the women that attend your school or that you know practice a martial art, what would you say is the average age? over 30....and way beyond...one very fit female student is 70 this year!

Mandeigh

[Fire_Wings]

1-What percentage of your school would you say consists of women?

10-15 percent

2-Aside from the obvious differences between men and women, can you see any consistent differences in the way women go about their training compared to men?

Men will overtrain and put unnecessary pressure on their bodies, such as bare-fist boxing a heavy bag to "toughen them up".
Women like to learn to use leverage and technique as opposed to muscle. They see the logic in this, as they understand many attackers will have a weight/size advantage.

3-What would you say is the most valuable contribution that women bring to MA?

We keep them humble. They learn that no person can be labeled inferior at first glance.

4-In your experience, do you find that women are well accepted in MA by men, or are they treated differently? If they are treated differently, how so?

The most discrimination comes from either "vetrans" or people who know absolutely nothing.

5-For those who have been around a very long time (and anyone else who has something to contribute here), do you find that the amount of women who practice MA has risen over the years, declined, or there has been no noticeable difference?

...

6-In general, do women seem to excel in a certain area of MA compared to men?

women tend to be more flexible and better balanced.

7-Finally, for you women out there, what are your personal experiences in this domain??

All my experience is positive. any discrimination was stopped by my instructor, (always good when you get to handle it yourself during a sparring match too.)

8- Of the women that attend your school or that you know practice a martial art, what would you say is the average age? Is it mostly teenage girls and kids, women in their twenties, middle age, or no noticeable pattern? As well, do women seem to stick with it, making it a way of life or more or less come and go, not treating it as a long-term "quest" (for lack of a better word). In other words, do they make it to BB or quit before they reach any kind of concrete knowledge.

In our school most of the women are in the kid category. There are no other teenagers, (accept me). When people are younger, the fea
r of physical contact with a boy is far less.

[tkdcanada]

Thanks Mandeigh and Alex! Mandeigh, in answer to whether your answers will help or not, YES, THEY WILL! The more answers I get, the clearer the picture is and the more accurate my information. It gives me an idea of whether there really is consistency or if things are just all over the board. Please keep them coming!

[Yang Shen]

Internal Martial Arts School

1. Our class setting is about 50-70% women at this time. These numbers change continually.

2. Spiritual no difference/ temporary conditions (intellectual mind/body) vary in degrees of yin and yang for men and women, training is no different, awareness varies, the subtleties of techniques being hard or soft at the “right moment” does not seem to depend on a born sex.

3. When we are not secluded from the dark and light energies it helps for a balance understanding/relationship/interaction of things, this is helpful in the training hall (presence of men and women) and the imaginary borders of mind can be eliminated through ones own experience and not relying on methods using conditioned thoughts.


4. Taoist traditions have a very long history of female adepts. Psychological un- balance can create difference in relations each person will have varying degrees mostly created by external conditions of society and culture not from the real.

5. Decline and rise follow each other just as the seasons.

6. When seeking balance we increase the deficiencies and decrease the excess. Men may not understand how to apply softness/submissive at the right time and women may not understand how to apply hardness/forceful at the right time. Proper conditioning and training can correct all so any error found in women the opposite error can also be found in men. At the same time yin and yang are not always male and female, a female may need to balance the yin/female energies because of excessive yang qualities not always found to be the other way around so discovery of the root becomes more informative then conscious knowledge that leads to the separation to begin with.

8. Our school train’s all age’s classes for seniors, kids and middle range. The younger class has more male at this time
The other two divisions have a higher percentage of women at this time. As far as coming and going again that fact does not seem to be gender specific, yet we all may know the only constant is change itself.

The public class is a beautiful thing all ages, all genders as a balanced whole working to reach perfection of improved awareness, better physical conditions and martial ability/skill to deal with aggressive behavior not conducted at the proper time, what a noble goal.

[tkdcanada]

I want to thank everyone who took the time to reply to this thread. Your answers helped me tremendously to formulate a direction for my essay. I am happy to say that it is about 90% finished - I just have to polish it up and it looks like the finished product will be about 9 pages long and will be handed in this Saturday! Thank you all!

[wingchundo.girl]

I know you have probably written your paper already, but I loved the fact that you had to write one, so I am compelled to answer your questions based on my experience as a student long ago and as an instructor.

1) The percentage of women and men were always small, 10% and I haven't seen a difference since I was a student in 1986. In children classes they were a lot higher, but in an adult atmosphere the percentage is low. There are many reasons to why this is.
a) if the woman is a mother/wife - whenever there are changes in the household, the person that takes up the slack is the mother/wife. If schedules change, getting kids fed and ready for bed, ect.. the list can go on and on. Ther person that gives up any extra curricular activity is mom.
b) in a male dominated class, it takes a certain amount of courage to enter into that domain and actually decide to stay there.
c) sometimes it takes just having another woman in the class, but if that other person leaves, the confidence is not there to stay.
d) no real support from the instructor or male students to make her feel welcome and comfortable.
e) becoming a mom

2) The consistent differences between men and women especially when they first join is, men can't wait to feel "the clash of the titans" They do the new techniques with as much force and as fast as they can muster. They want to get to the power without concentrating on proper technique.

Women on the otherhand understand that they don't have as much power as the guys, so they have nothing to prove. They are more patient. They become technicians. They are more apt to learn the techniques with precision and correct line and form. If she believes that the techniques are valid and will work for her, she tries to do them as accurately as possible. She knows that if she ever gets into an altercation on the street, which is a women's own very real personal fear, she knows she can't out muscle a man. She knows that "owning" that technique, inside and out, will save her life.

Consequently when women get into the higher ranks and become stronger and have more confidence in their power and techniques, they usually outdo the men. They target better, their fundamentals are better, their foundations are better and they can continue forward to the next level. Whereas some of the men have to reevaluate their fundamentals and go back to clean up their techniques.

3) One of the valuable contributions made by women in/to the martial arts is the validation of that particular martial art. I mean, that any art that claims to be self defense has to be true to any size or gender. If the art can work for a 110lb women as well as for the 250lb man, then I feel that art has been validated. Women expose the truth, that's why in so many cultures they have been kept silent. I have heard certain instructors actually say, well we are too hard on women, they can't do what we teach. These are excuses. The great legends and martial arts of the world were orgininally created in countries where the peoples were smaller in stature. If it doesn't work for a women, it doesn't really work.

Women also can create a new way at looking at a technique. Instead of going head on, she may go more angular on attack. She may use more evasive techniques, striking at different targets. She may impact the way a technique is taught, because the instructor has to make it work for her. She becomes more cunning.

4) When I was a student, I experienced very nuturing male students. They usually were men that had sisters, wives, or daughters at home. They compensated for my strength and were responsive to my requests of "go lighter, go stronger. let me try this."

I also have experienced guys that when I became their partner, the disappointment or frustration would show up in their faces. I have to admit, this alone could have kept me home at times. I was an unwanted partner. I had to either earn their respect, which means I took some bruises trying to be "tough" or look for a more receptive partner next time.

Some men did not like my asking them to be slightly softer because they would go too soft and I got no real workout or feedback. It was like I was hitting noodles. Sometimes if I got a good shot in, because my technique was better than theirs, the pendulum would swing the other way, because their ego couldn't take it and they would swing harder and faster. I learned to work with better partners, those that gave me excellent feedback and workout. Usually this only happened when I was in the lower ranks. In the higher ranks, they know you and have gained respect for your technique so class is far more enjoyable.

When I first started there were four women in the class. I was the only one left for over three years. After a while the guys would see how hard I was working that they would actually watch me to see how I did, which sometimes I managed to amuse them, and sometimes they cheered me on. (a little embarassing, but okay.)

5) We have seen an increase of women in our school, usually because they come in with their husbands, but because of the reasons I stated in #1,that can still go as low as 10% again. I know Tae Bo and other types of martial arts aerobics have brought them into many a school and have exposed them to the martial arts and brought them into the traditional class. But most stay in the aerobics program.

6) Women are technicians and that's why I love teaching them. When they first join they don't even know how to hit or know the amount of power they really possess. When they discover it the transformation is amazing. Precision in technique, accuracy in targeting, correct line and form, power generation and speed, they learn so much faster.

Of course, I am only talking from my own experiences and opinions. Your questionaire has given me an opportunity to express my thoughts on a very dear topic. Women in the martial arts, wish there were more of us. Thanks,

Liz Ambrose

[tkdcanada]

Actually, I have addressed a lot of those things in my paper.

I tried to attach the file for those who may be interested in reading it, but it told me it was an invalid file type....so I guess that's out.

Anyway, thanks for your response!

[tkdcanada]

Okay, I think I got it. I must warn anyone who begins to read it that it's long (9 pages or so). Constructive criticism is welcome but please be kind
I tried to be as accurate as possible and it was a big leap of faith for me to share this publicly. For whoever does read it, I'd love feedback.