Gun Disarm; Pistol front

[lonewolf12563]

Most of the pistol disarms taught today have you grabbing the gun hand for the disarm. Then disarm by twisting the gun hand to remove the gun. This is a very dangerous technique. First, grabbing the gun is high risk. Under high threat your fine motor skills go right out the window. You have no control over the attacker's body and no control of the field of fire. A simple counter to this disarm would be to simply pull back and the gun will center back on to the target.
A better technique would be as demonstrated in the move of the month. Please check it out. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Thanks Ed

[Sochin]

Excuse me, Ed,
but asking a question to disguise an advertisment for your club is a cheap shot, a distinct no-no.

This is a very dangerous technique. First, grabbing the gun is high risk. Under high threat your fine motor skills go right out the window.

The cqc grab is no more complicated than the ju jitsu grab you show. In fact, your grab is more compicated because you do a full step in (taking a tonne of time), with a grab from a "hands down at your sides" position before he can pull the trigger. Aye, you can beat me if your hands are up but if your hands are by your sides, I (for one) will drill you! Play with a a gun that shoots, if you don't believe me...there are a lot of paintball and dart guns out there.

The next point that the cqc grab does not control the muzzle is just wrong, either you don't know how we do it or you are pervaricating for our own point. Sell it to someone who doesn't know the difference, hey? You think cqc doesn't know that a pull back centers the muzzle? We know it full well and the management of the pull back is part of the process. But I won't tell you how!

[Cliff Hargrave]

Most of the pistol disarms taught today have you grabbing the gun hand for the disarm. Then disarm by twisting the gun hand to remove the gun. This is a very dangerous technique. First, grabbing the gun is high risk. Under high threat your fine motor skills go right out the window. You have no control over the attacker's body and no control of the field of fire. A simple counter to this disarm would be to simply pull back and the gun will center back on to the target.
A better technique would be as demonstrated in the move of the month. Please check it out. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Thanks Ed

I hope I don't sound too critical but I can't think of any other way to put this. So I apologize in advance if this offends you.

So why do you say this and how do you justify it? Do you have any studies to verify your statement? Do you have any statistics that prove your idea is "less" dangerous? Or is this just your opinion? I have been teaching defensive tactics for years and I have never heard this idea. Is this something you are trained in? If so where does it come from? I would like to investigate it. Or is this something you are creating yourself?

The reason I am saying this is because I always advocate controling the muzzle of the weapon because there is no room for error in a firearm disarm. In the technique you demostrated, a waki-gatame, first you go against all the current thinking by moving to the side of the trigger finger which increases the chance of the weapon discharging. Next you never control the weapon at all. Now granted if you execute the technique perfectly it may work. However how many times do things go perfectly? The first counter that I saw, since you are not controlling the weapon, would be to simply reach over and hand the weapon off to the other hand and shoot you. Also if you do not have perfect control over the arm, the gunman can turn his wrist and may get a shot at you. Your technique is no more effective than punching the bad guy in the face. If it knocks him out then great, but if it doesn't you haven't taken any steps to control the weapon.

While your technique may me a perfectly legitimate and workable technique, I fail to see where it's "better" or less dangerous than others that are out there.

The current, accepted disarms came about from DT folks actually shooting each other with simunition. That is where the moving to the opposite side of the trigger finger and controlling the muzzle came from. This is serious business and you need to justify your research. Disarming techniques depend on lots of factors including:

the type of weapon
the size, motivation, and demeanor of the attacker
the terrain
the location of others
your training, ability, and mindset
and lots of other stuff........

I don't even believe it's appropriate to show disarms on a webpage.

[lonewolf12563]

First of all how many months have I shown techniques free with out selling anything? Almost a year.
Second I do know your disarm techniques and I do not like them. Remember the Border patrol guy who was killed by the detaine that he did not search properly? He was taught the same disarms that every Law enforcement officer is taught. The problem is that you do not control the attackers body by grabbing the gun hand. It is too easy to mess it up.
By moving in and going for the armbar which is a basic move you are making contact and controling the body more effectively. The same as you would be t-ing off for a gappling takedown ( Gracie tie up ). Go ahead and slap at the gun hand. Ever do it for real? From how many feet? Over extend your body to reach for the gun?
The police comunity is a hard sell because of your closed society mindset. This technique was taught to me in the military. If I came to your unit with this credential and that credential you would say cool thats how they do it? Ive seen it a hundred times. I have also seen DT intructors still teach old 1950 tactics and mindsets. And I have seen a lot of cops get injured.
Cliff you have to be able to disarm someone from either side. Inside or outside. Do you really think you have the time to think? You have to act. Again think of the Border patrol agent. If he went to slap the gun hand he would of still been shot. If he instead of backing away was taught to move in and control the body of the attacker he would be alive today. If he messed up the armbar he could still go for a wrist break from this position. But at least he is controling the body better than reaching for the wrist.
As far as showing techniques on the web, I disagree. I got flak about showing an offensive knive technique too. I'm personal am tired seeing the same old basic grappling move. Jujutsu is about CQC. And that is what I am going to show. Thanks Ed

[Sgathak]

The shown technique is simple, viable, and workable... Though theres some "dead air" between picture 1 and 2 that I think is kind of questionable... How do you get from 1 to 2? Feet, body, or hands first?

I think, as Cliff said, that without controlling the weapon initially, its easy to transition from 1 hand to the other. You dont seem to control the attackers body until pic 3, which leaves him open to just step to his left (in this pic seq) which and because the arm is weakly controlled, he can still articulate his elbow and shoulder allowing him to do a simple "roll" of his wrist to break your control and/or second hand assist on the weapon to reaquire his target.

The standing armbar looks ok, but in pic 4 defender sits out with the left leg, opening the attackers decent area and allowing for a roll out, literally leaving the gun pointing in the defenders face.

Im a firm beleiver in the "ambidextriousness" of a technique. It should be able to work from either side (L or R) and from both inside and outside. I dont see this technique doing that. With this technique, the defender is literally walking into a choak if he steps to the inside, as the defender is betting only on the armbar to save him. Im sure your system has defenses for being on the inside of the arm, and Im sure you address them.. but this is just another weakness I see to this technique

On the plus side, this technique seems to keep the gun in a "safe" direction. Its not sweeping sideways or crossing anyones bodies... and I like that. I like that the body is clear of the weapon and to go against the "status quo" that you focused on finishing the threat first and disarming second. Remeber, "guns dont kill people - people kill people"... so take the PERSON out and the guns threat is reduced to allow for a safer disarm.

And for what its worth... Im also just basing this off a sequence of static images and there may be things Im missing

Sochin, I think that the full step in the safest response and takes NO LESS TIME than trying to do a muzzle control if the step in is your trained first response. Unless its your contention that the arms move faster than the legs??? It potentially provides more contact with the attacker and clears your body from ANY danger from the discharge. By the defender sweeping his arm up and pressing the attackers arm into the chest (not shown here... this is one thing that we do however) it takes the SAME amount of time if done in a fluid motion, and reduces the fine motor control need. Admittedly, it potentially increases the possibility of a discharge into uncontrolled space, but it aint your chest cavity blocking the discharge so you can still keep fighting. This is important as you CANT keep fighting if your bleeding.

Cliff, I have never heard that going to the outside of the trigger finger increases a discharge possibility, whats the reasoning behind this? Is it biomechanical? Using functioning props (Airsoft) I have NEVER seen an increase in discharge likelyhood, but those are my experiences, YMMV. Also, as I mentioned... going to the outside is safer as it eliminates the possibility of a choak. To continue the attack, the attacker has to first readjust (step outside to the left or roll) and THEN move to attack. He cant step to his right as the defender is there, and his only defense if he doesnt move, is a fairly weak cross-body-over-the-controlled-arm punch - which can work as a couter defense - but then again, it is just as likely to fail as any other single punch to an adrenaline pumped fighter. Also, by stepping outside, you are FAR more likely to be leaving his effective sight thanks to the miracles of tunnel vision. Step inside, and your in his immediate occular cone.

Just my opinions.

[Cliff Hargrave]

First of all how many months have I shown techniques free with out selling anything?

Well, first, I didn't say anything about you selling anything, what the heck are you talking about?

(wait, what about the FREE army manual for $20?)

Almost a year.
Second I do know your disarm techniques and I do not like them.

Well that's your right. Have you ever disarmed anyone?

Remember the Border patrol guy who was killed by the detaine that he did not search properly?

No, never heard about it. Do you have a link to it I can see?

He was taught the same disarms that every Law enforcement officer is taught.

Is there a video of it to show what happened? And what disarms are taught to every law enforcement officer? Do you know? Around here NO disarms were taught until me and some other guys got together and wrote the classes. I know other academies that teach tons of it. So you can't make a blanket statement like that because LEO training varies so much across the country.

The problem is that you do not control the attackers body by grabbing the gun hand. It is too easy to mess it up.
By moving in and going for the armbar which is a basic move you are making contact and controling the body more effectively. The same as you would be t-ing off for a gappling takedown ( Gracie tie up ). Go ahead and slap at the gun hand. Ever do it for real? From how many feet? Over extend your body to reach for the gun?

What are you talking about? slapping the gun? doing a gracie takedown? Are you talking about doing a takedown on a gunman?

The police comunity is a hard sell because of your closed society mindset.

huh? Police are a hard sell because they are tired of folks popping up with the "new" "improved" "best-est" techniques and gadgets that don't work. You want to know what a hard sell is? Teach a SWAT team something. You better be able to prove everything you do on the biggest baddest guy there because they will demand it. Their lives and other people's lives depend on it. Yes we are a hard sell, and I like it that way.

This technique was taught to me in the military. If I came to your unit with this credential and that credential you would say cool thats how they do it? Ive seen it a hundred times. I have also seen DT intructors still teach old 1950 tactics and mindsets. And I have seen a lot of cops get injured.

So how do you see "a lot" of cops get injured? What do you do that brings you in contact with all these injured cops? I AM a cop and have been one for almost 19 years. How are you in contact with all these DT instructors?

What are you saying? That if you had credentials I would be impressed? Well you missed the boat on that one. First, do you have credentials? You have never listed them. Second, even if you did I wouldn't care. I am part of that "hard sell" group remember? BTW I have a police DT book from 1935 that is simply awesome.

Cliff you have to be able to disarm someone from either side. Inside or outside. Do you really think you have the time to think? You have to act.

Yes that is correct, however you have better options and worse options and yes you better be able to think under pressure. Everything we do involves thinking under pressure. If you are executing these techniques then you are thinking too, you are just not admitting it. You don't just blindly react but you evaluate the situation and apply the appropriate techniques all in a very short time frame.

Again think of the Border patrol agent. If he went to slap the gun hand he would of still been shot. If he instead of backing away was taught to move in and control the body of the attacker he would be alive today. If he messed up the armbar he could still go for a wrist break from this position. But at least he is controling the body better than reaching for the wrist.

Again I don't know about the agent you are talking about.

As far as showing techniques on the web, I disagree. I got flak about showing an offensive knive technique too. I'm personal am tired seeing the same old basic grappling move. Jujutsu is about CQC. And that is what I am going to show. Thanks Ed

Well I guess we disagree then. I don't think everyone in the public needs to see everything.

Ed,

You make a lot statements that do not support the facts. You talk about slapping the gun and attacking the wrist, when we are actually controlling the gun and gun hand. You make statements about it being too easy to mess up but you make no qualifying statements to support your position. I could say the same about your technique.

You post about controlling the body and then you show a waki-gatame against a handgun. That doesn't control anything but the arm until the body is completly on the ground, and even then you better have broke something or they are still fighting.

Have you ever hit a waki-gatame for real against an unarmed person? How about in randori? If you do not hit it perfect then the opponent bends his elbow slightly, turns into you, and now you are in a grappling match. With your technique you are in a grappling match with a gun that you were not controlling to begin with.

You also jump onto a LEO/Military forum announcing that everyone is doing this wrong and you are now going to show how to do it right. Did you think no one would comment on it? Why don't you go the Korean section and tell them they are kicking wrong and you are now going to show them the right way to kick? Think that will get some responses?

Disarming involves 1) clearing your body from the muzzle 2) controlling the weapon and gun hand and 3) executing a disarm. You are simply advocating jumping directly to #3. Your stuff may work or it may not, but their is absolutely NO WAY you can say it is better than anything without offering some proof.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Cliff, I have never heard that going to the outside of the trigger finger increases a discharge possibility, whats the reasoning behind this?

It was based on an experiment using simunition (paint ball ammo for real guns). It found that moving to the same side as the trigger finger increased the chance of getting shot greatly.

[lonewolf12563]

Wow! Cliff sorry that you spent your whole Sunday writing back to me.
Yes I have actually disarmed a weapon from someone but it wasn't a pistol it was an AK47 in El Salvador.
Yes I do get waki-gatame alot during randori...Not all the same way all the time.
I'm sorry I thought you were SWAT. Or part of a tactical team. The boder patrol guy that got shot was in brownsville station I think. You are from Texas?
Someone down there should have the video. It is a classic.
It is hard to fully explain by a couple of picture every little nuances of a technique. That would take a book if I had to do it for every technique. By the way if the attacker does bend his arm in the armbar I show, say you messed up, then you go straight into a wrist break. But the gun is pointed into his body.
Alot of people are on the band wagon to sell their wears especialy the knife slashing community. I'll save that for another time. But this much I agree. But since Ive been around and invloved with Police work for most of my life it has allways been a closed, hard to teach a dog new tricks group. Look at all the fat boys on patrol that you know. At least you train Cliff. How many do nothing..Alot. It is a different world. You are not only going up against drunks and domestics anymore. I bet that prison guard in NYC wished he studied and practiced correct methods of protection before he got that comb ( made into a shive) in his eye and brains.
By the way Taekwon do is crap. That should cover the Korean question.

To offer proof I would be glad to do a seminar for you guys. Just pay for my airfare and food and hotel. So basically I would do it for free.
Thanks Ed

[Cliff Hargrave]

Wow! Cliff sorry that you spent your whole Sunday writing back to me.

I was at work so I was getting paid to do it

[lonewolf12563]

Cool hope your day went well

[Jeff Burger]

"It found that moving to the same side as the trigger finger increased the chance of getting shot greatly."

Any ideas as to why so?

Some had posted somehwere the statisitics of accuracy in dealing with a gun at varying distance.
I was looking for it but int find it.

Jeff

[Cliff Hargrave]

"It found that moving to the same side as the trigger finger increased the chance of getting shot greatly."

Any ideas as to why so?

Some had posted somehwere the statisitics of accuracy in dealing with a gun at varying distance.
I was looking for it but int find it.

Jeff

I think it has to do with hitting the trigger finger and their natural reactions causing the trigger to squeeze.

[Jim]

My Dad grew a lot of pumpkins that we're still trying to eat our way through over the past few months. What's that got to do with this subject? Nothing, but I thought it needed a bit of cooling so feel free to laugh at me and my myriad of pumpkins.

Anyone need some?

[Sochin]

"It found that moving to the same side as the trigger finger increased the chance of getting shot greatly."

When I got the training, I was told, "The firearm will fire. Believe it and be ready for it."

No matter what I did or how...the only thing I was to do was to make sure that the muzzle was not pointing at anyone I cared about.

[Sgathak]

Cliff, do you have any references that I can look up on the simunition results? As I said, with our work, we saw NO increase in likelyhood that the firearm would discharge. Granted, we were just using Airsoft, but they wernt the cheapies you see in the Sporting Goods store either.

[RA Miller]

Hmmm-

Been away for a while.

First, Ed, no one gave you flak about the morality of putting knife techniques on the web, you got a ton of flak for showing a technique that will only work against an extremely cooperative uke. (Unless I'm thinking of the wrong thread).

Second, LEO's and the military are inherently conservative. There are tens of thousands of years of failed experiments and the price of failure is often death. Very little is truly 'new'... it's more likely that the last guy who thought of it died. Hence "it has allways been a closed, hard to teach a dog new tricks group". That varies extensively depending on how much they respect you.

If you have spent your whole life around law enforcement, you shouldn't be surprised. You claim that gripping the weapon doesn't control the "field of fire", but it does so far more than the technique you show- your uke's wrist is completely free, nearly 180 spherical degrees of uncontrolled shots. Your bio says army, the pictures on your web site always have blue Air Force chevrons. You've trained in JJ since 1980, but no mention of with who and other than you, I can find no reference to an Itto Ogami ryu, which looks even more odd being named after a chambara/manga character.

If you are having trouble breaking into our "closed, hard to teach" group, that may be part of the reason.

Rory

[lonewolf12563]

Yea right. That is why cops still do not know how to fight. Ok some do but most suck at it. I'll get flak for that one for sure. Tell me RA Miller how much do you really know about Jujutsu in Japan? Not much. Jujutsu is not some fast food sanctioned tae kwon do organization. Any way if you know anything about standing armbars yes dorathy the wrist is controlled. Oh I know, lets play the switch the hand game or the I'll turn my wrist while I am breaking your arm. BS. Try the technique. You will find it is fast and the pressure on the arm is effective. You are not using arm strength but body weight to break the arm. I am not glomming over the gun like a teenager on his first date. The special ops community is far from conservative. Maybe your local donut eaters are. As far as my position now, yes I do work for the Air Force. Those are some of my friend who I train with. I am no longer in the Army. I should not have to explain to every yahoo my credentials. If you do not like the technique..well then move on, who cares. But you sound like you have now idea what you are talking about.
As far as training PD. I am. Although not as much as I would like but it is a start. You know that all they want is a DT certification for insurance. Where do you get DT certified. From some other cop who teaches at the academy. Who teaches the same BS that doesn't work. and you know it doesn't. Ok well on drunk guys. I fully understand that it is hard to work and train and have familly life. I applaud those who do. But I can say this, every cop I have worked with has had bad base ( balance), cordination and bad close quarter techniques. The swat guys seem to do better, much. But alot of them are still doing this slap hand crap for knife diasarms which is idiotic. So you may think that your training is the end all but it is not. Wrong thread about the knife technique.
Your statement;
There are tens of thousands of years of failed experiments and the price of failure is often death. Very little is truly 'new'... it's more likely that the last guy who thought of it died.

Is BS. Tactics change. I think San Jose is now shooting out of helicopters because of the LA bank robbery. I was teaching that course for years in the Army. But I bet they caught flak for thinking that one up. But someone pushed the idea until it was accepted .So as you can see there is always someone who might just have a better way of doing things. ED

[Cliff Hargrave]

I should not have to explain to every yahoo my credentials.

Well you dang well should have to explain them when you go to someone's message board and basically say that everyone sucks and you are god's gift to hand to hand combat.

Then you post awesome, ground breaking techniques like a hip throw against a knife that puts the knife right in your stomach, and grappling technique that wouldn't work on a TKD yellow belt. Now you top it off with an arm bar against a pistol.

You come on here disrespecting everything but your own made up jujutsu style, that no one has ever heard of, never say where you trained, with whom, how long, what styles, and make vague references to the military.

I think you should go away until you can conduct yourself appropriately, qualify your opinions with a legit training history, and present your ideas on martial arts without sounding like an overbearing know-it-all.

Rory probably has 100 times more real world experience in defensive tactics than you could possibly make up in your fake jujutsu style.

I just pray you don't get anyone killed while you are playing out your fantasies of being a steely-eyed commando instructor.

[Sgathak]

wow what a professional

[Webmaster]

OK, let me see...
The attacker is totally on balance.
There is little pressure being applied to the elbow and it appears to be over-rotated to the front.
The wrist is not being controlled. The other pictures in this series do not show any additional control of the wrist or weapon.
The defender is applying waki-gatame with his back to the defender.

So exactly what is preventing the attacker from rotating the muzzle around the area?

You said it in your very first post of this thread...

This is a very dangerous technique.

I agree, and that is why I would NEVER teach this technique to my students.