Ground Fighting

[Kievs]

Does anyone else learn ground fighting in their TKD school? We learn groud fighting, TKD, Hapkido, and a little boxing in our classes pretty much from the start, they all work very effectively and they compliment each other very well. is this very different that we do this? i really don't know, this is the only Dojang i have ever trained in, so i'm not really educated in how other schools work. my KwangJangNim is also from an era when you didn't get a black belt in TKD unless you had one in Hapkido as well, so maybe he is just as bit old school. I dunno, i said it in another post, i never knew that TKD was falling into such a state of low standards in so many places, it's kind of sad because TKD can do wonders for a person if it's done properly.
Ryan

[Adam]

What exactly do you mean by "ground fighting"?

[Molly]

By ground fighting do you mean grappling (yeah, not sure if i spelled that right - i'm a horrible speller). Because we do that a lot. At my school you start grappling around green belt and then when you are a black belt you do mostly free-style grappling with arm bars and head locks, etc... Also, at my school we too incorporate many other types of martial arts, mostly Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, Karate, and we also do a lot of boxing.

[nosh276]

We study ground fighting at my school as well as "weeping" style Jujitsu. Like you said, they compliment eachother well.

[SRK85]

Yes my school too does grappling. The problem is TKD is not a complete art so we do alot of non-tkd things.

[riku]

Kievs, Adam-
Respect the forum rule that demands everyone to sign all posts with real, full name (first and last), or have nic that includes full name.

Riku Ylönen

[Kievs]

what i mean by ground fighting is basically Jujitsu, very close to wrestling, all of it takes place on the ground, breaking peoples guards, lot's of arm and elbow breaks, choking, etc.
Ryan

[nosh276]

what i mean by ground fighting is basically Jujitsu, very close to wrestling, all of it takes place on the ground, breaking peoples guards, lot's of arm and elbow breaks, choking, etc.
Ryan

Look at the post right above yours!

[riku]

Kievs-
read this:
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5142

Riku Ylönen

[Adam]

Ryan,

Sorry man, my school doesn't focos on that aspect(I hope I spelled that right) of fighting. Wish I could be of help there.

[Wlerp]

Ground fighting is exactly that, fighting. Arm bars and joint locks are great for controling techniques but if you take me to the ground wishing to beat my head on the concrete I will not try for an arm bar or some such waste of energy. I will kick, punch, head but, elbow, knee, scratch, and bite to keep you from hurting me.
I have only been studying TKD for 17 years (not long in the grand scheme of things) and have been teaching ground fighting and grappling in my curriculum for the past 10. I stated in another post about this. The generals encyclopedia has grappling, ground fight, and take downs, along with all the flashy kicks TKD is known for.

[John Bennett]

...if you take me to the ground wishing to beat my head on the concrete I will not try for an arm bar or some such waste of energy. I will kick, punch, head but, elbow, knee, scratch, and bite to keep you from hurting me.

Who taught you that armbars are a waste of energy?

How old are you?

Which TKD technique is used for escaping the mount? What is its Korean name?

[DragonMind]

...I will not try for an arm bar or some such waste of energy. I will kick, punch, head but, elbow, knee, scratch, and bite to keep you from hurting me.

Actually, I would first put you in that arm bar and THEN pound your head into the ground (after breaking your shoulder, elbow and wrist). Gets rid of that annoying squirming...

I love it when someone who doesn't really understand grappling tries to punch me from the ground. Without a stable base, your punches and kicks lack power and all you end up doing is handing your limbs to the grappler to play with at leisure. Your techniques might work against someone else who doesn't know grappling but are sucker techniques to a grappler. I've read Gen Choi's books and his grappling sections are not as complete as they should be. Get on the mat with a grappler (such as BJJ, judo, hapkido, etc) and try your techniques against them. I highly recommend it for all TKD practitioners; it will open your eyes to the world where most of your techniques have been neutralized.

[Gae-Bek]

Does anyone else learn ground fighting in their TKD school?

Generally, no. I've worked-out in six Taekwondo schools, and all but two of them don't do anything on the ground. One did a little, and the one that I teach in now does a moderate amount (not enough though, IMHO).

I will not try for an arm bar or some such waste of energy. I will kick, punch, head but, elbow, knee, scratch, and bite

I was at XFO 2 (Xtreme Fighting Org) in Lake Geneva, WI this weekend. I watched my Jiu-Jitsu Instructor in his first ameteur MMA fight (won by knockout at 1:02 of round #2...woohoo!!!), along with 9 other fights.

There was one fight in particular that I want to reference here. One guy attacks right out of the gate with a flurry of punches (landing several). He clinches, and slams his opponent to the ground, and begins to pound away. The guy on the bottom takes 5 or 6 good shots to the head, before he finally gets a hold of an incoming arm, and arm-bars-him-out. BANG. Just like that, the fighter with more technique and composure stole the momentum from a more-aggressive fighter who relied on a flurry of strikes.

An armbar is NOT a waste of energy. It's only a waste of energy if you don't know how to set it up right, or how to keep the guy from grabbing with his other arm. And even then, there are still ways to strip that other arm, and still get the arm-bar. The problem is, NO TAEKWONDO SCHOOL TEACHES HOW TO CORRECTLY DO AN ARM-BAR. The TKD way allows for too much space between you and your opponent, and creates bad habits. My success used to be hit-and-miss with an arm-bar, but after being shown in BJJ how to do it properly, I can now nail it every time.

The generals encyclopedia has grappling, ground fight,

I own a copy of "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Theory and Technique", which I believe everyone here will agree is a more-superior source of ground-fighting information than General Choi's encyclopedia. I studied this book for 2 years, practiced it with my students, and even taught what I could get to work. And when I took those techniques to a BJJ school, I got stomped...again, and again, and again (4 months later, I'm getting better, but I STILL get stomped most of the time). If those techniques work for you, then fine...but I do encourage you to try them against someone who knows what they're doing [on the ground].

The point being, that you should really learn your ground techniques from people who train with them every day.

[Wlerp]

If you are taught effective arm bars and practice them alot then they will work for you. If you are taught effective ground fighting and practice that alot then that will will work for you. For me arm bars are a waste of time because I haven't taken the time to practice them from a combat sense I guess. I was taught to use the throws and grabs in juijutsu to gain control then end with the striking arts. Yes for me they are a waste of time. For all those who jumped on me maybe they are not a waste of time for you.

To answer the other questions I am a 30 year old male. I have been studying TKD since 13, Jidokwan juijutsu since 10, shio karano karate since 20, and did 3 years of Brazilian Jui Jutsu. I have also fought in the battle of Baltimore and fought in the barroom boxing in Atlanta. So I do have just a touch of experience. I have been bouncing in bars since 21 and never been taken to the ground as a bouncer. The 4 times I was taken to the ground was as an MP in the Corp. It didn't take much to roll the guys off me and get control of the situation. In those cases I was taught to use controling techniques. So they do have a place.

As for what is the Korean name for getting out of the mount? I don't know of one but that doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. I can only state what I know through personal experience. As for not having power to punch and kick from the ground, I was taught to use them to defend myself from the ground against a standing opponent in Jui Jutsu. It's in my curriculum. I was tested on it as part of my test for 1st and 2nd degree in Juijutsu. It must have something going for it. I trained for a couple of years as stated above in ground fighting and have seen guys KO'd from the ground. I have seen it even in the UFC, pride, and K1. Are you telling me that they were fake KO's?

This post is starting to sound like another TKD bashing post. If that's all it is then this is wasting everyones time. The original question was if anyone practiced ground fighting in their TKD school. My post was to try to enlighten some folks who say that TKD is not a complete art. Open the Encyclopedia of TKD and look. No it does not have a full BJJ curriculum or a full ground fighting curriculum. TKD was not supposed to be on the ground unless absolutely necessary. As a combat art practitioner I wouldn't want to fight from the ground. I prefer to stay on my feet where I can deal with the guys two friends too. Also I don't know about you but rolling around in a parking lot full of glass and nails with cars driving around doesn't sound like the best idea to me.

If you can make the arm bars and such work, good for you. As for me I still say they are a waste of time......for me. My school is in Westminster, MD if any of you are ever in town come and work out with us. Don't knock it till youve tried it. Use my e-mail and let me know when you can come to town.

[John Bennett]

I very much respect your training and experience Wil, but to say that armbars and such are a waste of time and energy is a very different thing than saying that you personally don't find them useful.

Joint locks aren't the end-all-be-all of fighting. They are however a very important and useful component of being a well-rounded fighter.

[DragonMind]

If you are taught effective ground fighting and practice that alot then that will will work for you.

Not necessarily. You can practice bad technique forever, but it will still be bad technique. The operative word there is effective. What folks are trying to point out is that what is in Choi's books and what you're espousing are NOT effective and won't work against a grappler. Frankly, Gen. Choi got his ground techniques from Hapkido/Hwa Rang, etc and only included them to appear complete. Don't get me wrong, I have great admiration for what the General did in bringing several kwons together and spreading Korean arts, but also realize that some things he did were politically motivated rather than good MA.

As for not having power to punch and kick from the ground, I was taught to use them to defend myself from the ground against a standing opponent in Jui Jutsu...and have seen guys KO'd from the ground. I have seen it even in the UFC, pride, and K1. Are you telling me that they were fake KO's?

Against a standing opponent? If you're on the ground what possible targets are you able to reach with a punch? Even your kicks rely completely on your opponent being foolish in their attack. I never said it wasn't possible to throw something from the ground and anyone can be KO'd with a lucky strike. How many times has a yellow belt rattled your teeth because they did something unexpected and got lucky? How are most fights in UFC, Pride, etc. won? Not by KO...

TKD was not supposed to be on the ground unless absolutely necessary. As a combat art practitioner I wouldn't want to fight from the ground. I prefer to stay on my feet where I can deal with the guys two friends too. Also I don't know about you but rolling around in a parking lot full of glass and nails with cars driving around doesn't sound like the best idea to me.

The trouble is most fights start standing up but nearly all go to the ground at some point. No one WANTS to fight in that environment, but that is no excuse for not knowking how to most efficiently end that fight and get out of that environment. They also don't happen in nice open spaces. Let me suggest an experiment for you. Take a set of kicking bags (Wavemaster-free standing style) or tall bar stools and make a corridor about 20 feet long and 3-4 feet wide (think airplane aisle or parked cars). Try defending yourself in that arena. Try defending against a knife. Try defending against weapons of opportunity (amazing how many students don't realize what a weapon their belt is). See how fast it goes to the ground. Now, repeat the whole thing in low light conditions.

As for me I still say they are a waste of time......for me. My school is in Westminster, MD if any of you are ever in town come and work out with us. Don't knock it till youve tried it. Use my e-mail and let me know when you can come to town.

No one is knocking you or TKD. Respect is when someone disagrees with you but you still want to hear what they have to say. There is a wealth of experience here at Budoseek, but first you must be willing to empty your cup. I visit my daughter in Fredericksburg once a year. How far away is Westminster?

[Wlerp]

Fredricksburg, VA is about an hour to an hour and a half away. I would love a visit from other instructors and students. I may have been grumpy in my response and for that I apaologize.

Ground fighting is a very difficult thing to do against a standing opponent. takes guts and luck. And yes I have had my students ring my bell from time to time.

I wasn't trying to be offensive to people. I think I was just seeing another TKD bashing thread happening. Wanted to thwart it, that's all. Forgive a hot head please.

[nosh276]

We did ground fighting tonight. I did 2, 2 minute rounds, and one 5 minute round. I won every time, by choke holds, but my oponants, the whole time of all 3 fights, pretty much, had the upperhand, they threw me all over the place (I'm much smaller than either of them (64 inches and 124 pounds). I still never tapped out though. Technically I won, but I don't feel like I've won anything, because I know that if there were more experienced (this was their first time and my second) then thay probably would have been able to make me submit....

[blessed_samurai]

We did very little ground fighting but we did practice arm bars and choking. It wasn't until Hapkido that I got a taste of ground fighting and it wasn't until training in MMA/NHB that I fully appreciated being able to go from standing to ground with equal confidence.