Can kids really be black belts?

[Tre]

I have a question for a lot of you out there about ranking systems in martial arts and philosophical ethics.

When I was a kid I went to tae kwon do dojo for classes. At that dojo there was a kid who was a 2nd degree black belt and was only about 7 or 8. Do you think that a kid could gain a level of true mastery, especially in the mental portion, of martial arts at such a young age?

Also, as martial arts is quite physical, do you think that someone who was partial/full physically handicapped gain a true mastery of the mental portion of martial arts without being able to complete most given physical tasks?

I would really like to get your opinions on this subject.

Thanks,
Tre

[Andrew Green]

Anyone can wear a black belt.

Different people award them on different standards.

There are no universal standards.

I only award belts (of any colour) to kids, I figure adults shouldn't need that sort of thing to motivate them.

[nosh276]

I have a question for a lot of you out there about ranking systems in martial arts and philosophical ethics.

When I was a kid I went to tae kwon do dojo for classes. At that dojo there was a kid who was a 2nd degree black belt and was only about 7 or 8. Do you think that a kid could gain a level of true mastery, especially in the mental portion, of martial arts at such a young age?

Also, as martial arts is quite physical, do you think that someone who was partial/full physically handicapped gain a true mastery of the mental portion of martial arts without being able to complete most given physical tasks?

I would really like to get your opinions on this subject.

Thanks,
Tre

About the baby black belt....that's why every organization, that I know of, has age requirements for the degrees after 2nd. At my school you much be 16 to be third degree, and at least 21 to be fourth degree. About the disabled persons. It depends on how much of a handicap they actually have. Can someone with something like, cerebral palsey acheive mastery? Maybe.

[nosh276]

it posted twice, sorry

[Jen]

Sure, a kid can be a 2nd degree black belt at 7 or 8 years old if someone wants to give him the belt. The problem is convincing ourselves that the kid doesn't matter to us. I think if I could convince myself that other people don't affect me, I would be a lot happier. The only time someone of a high rank who does not display the ability they truly have really has an affect on me is if that person is working as my partner. Good school or bad school, there will always be a lazy person or two.
I do think a physically disabled person could gain mastery of an art without being capable of doing all or most of the techniques. If that person could describe applications of techniques, purposes, proper execution.
If a student can execute beautiful techiniques with ease, but does not know when or why they should be used, should they be allowed to gain a level of mastery? Black belt, i'll say. If a student testing for black belt does all of his techniques wonderfully, but cannot answer questions as to why they are used, are they going to be very useful to him?
Another student is also testing. He struggles to execute the techniques because he is handicapped in some way. He makes an effort though and does what he can, but will never be able to do them as well as the first person. When he is asked questions about application of techniques, they are answered accurately. Not that this person is just repeating what his instructor said, but can offer some of his own insight and opinion.
Neither of these two people would be able to use the techniques at the proper times. One because he has chosen not to learn this, and the other because he is disabled. If this disabled person had the ability to do the techniques, then they would be useful to him.
I just want to make sure to note that i'm not saying a person capable of doing the techniques but isn't, and displays knowledge about them should be allowed to get a black belt. We cannot all be graded in comparison to the best student, because we cannot all be as good as that person. Improvements upon ones own skills should be considered.
The attitude of the person needs to be taken into account as well as the ability.

[moogong]

Should pre-teens be allowed black belt and higher ranks? I dont think so, a black belt SHOULD be indicator of physical and mental maturity that I feel a kid does really does not have a solid grasp of. I do believe the belt system could be a good motivator for children but they should be stopping at 1st gup/kyu until they reach a more mature age is what I think should happen.

Can a person with a physical handicap gain a true mastery of the mental portion of martial arts without being able to complete most given physical tasks? Oh yeah. Gaining mastery of the martial arts in no way means having the cleanest of techniques or being the baddest mofo in the dojo, it means conquering whatever prevents you from peforming your best and furthering your chosen art. If you had two new students join a dojo, ones a natural athlete and the other a paraplegic, both stay for six months, learn the same material but the paraplegic can not kick the same height as the athlete, would you say the alhlete was a better martial artist? To futher that, the athlete drops out because he does not want to do put the time and effort into learning the skill but the paraplegic stays and works hard and in 10 years time earns his black belt and is teaching a class that produces gifted students. After that 10 years that same natural athlete comes back to the same dojo, now a little older but can still kick higher than the paraplegic....would you say he is a better martial artist? No...the disabled student had a higher moutain to climb to gain the little physical skill but he did and that whats makes a true martial artist. One of the best benefits of the martial arts is the iron will it forges (or it should) and thats what makes a master.

When I first started martial artists, I was a punk teenager and I had to overcome a terrible handicap that had plagued me my entire life...laziness.
I shutter to think of those day...

Here is a link to a good story that was in the news recently:

http://www.news14charlotte.com/conte...7&addvid=44299

[tkdcanada]

"....a black belt should be an indicator of physical and mental maturity that I feel a kid really does not have a grasp of...."

Maturity is not merely measured by years. Some kids have more maturity at 10 or 11 than a lot of adults will have in a lifetime. Granted it is rare, but I have witnessed it. I do agree with the first part of your sentence though. I know a girl who is 11 years old and wise way beyond her years. She constantly stuns and amazes me with her rooted, down to earth views about life and people and her sense of responsibility and constant selfless actions. So, should she not deserve a black belt just because she is 11? She has also demonstrated the determination and perserverance necessary to attain a very high level of physical ability, possessing beautiful technique and ability to understand. She stand out with everyone she meets, as a person and as a martial artist and shows a lot of promise.

[moogong]

"....a black belt should be an indicator of physical and mental maturity that I feel a kid really does not have a grasp of...."

Maturity is not merely measured by years. Some kids have more maturity at 10 or 11 than a lot of adults will have in a lifetime. Granted it is rare, but I have witnessed it. I do agree with the first part of your sentence though. I know a girl who is 11 years old and wise way beyond her years. She constantly stuns and amazes me with her rooted, down to earth views about life and people and her sense of responsibility and constant selfless actions. So, should she not deserve a black belt just because she is 11? She has also demonstrated the determination and perserverance necessary to attain a very high level of physical ability, possessing beautiful technique and ability to understand. She stand out with everyone she meets, as a person and as a martial artist and shows a lot of promise.

I have had kids in my dojang like this but like you said, it's rare. However, that rare maturity level would enable them to understand and respect the age rule of the black belt. I am, however, an advocate of the junior black belt ranking. When they reach a certain age, they are eligable to test for their 1st dan.

[Andrew Green]

Should pre-teens be allowed black belt and higher ranks? I dont think so, a black belt SHOULD be indicator of physical and mental maturity that I feel a kid does really does not have a solid grasp of. I do believe the belt system could be a good motivator for children but they should be stopping at 1st gup/kyu until they reach a more mature age is what I think should happen.

If this maturity is there why do they need this display of external validation at all? Roughly equivilant to a sticker from a dentist with a big smily face of white teeth...

[moogong]

If this maturity is there why do they need this display of external validation at all? Roughly equivilant to a sticker from a dentist with a big smily face of white teeth...

If this is your opinion, then I guess it will hard to convince you of the benefits of the belt system at all. So, I won't even attempt to.

[tkdcanada]

I have had kids in my dojang like this but like you said, it's rare. However, that rare maturity level would enable them to understand and respect the age rule of the black belt. I am, however, an advocate of the junior black belt ranking. When they reach a certain age, they are eligable to test for their 1st dan.

You're right and she does actually view her ranking in this way. There isn't really a set rule in our school (we have poom ranking until age 15), but she was due to test for black belt this summer and had to defer because her family needed to focus on other financial matters. She's completely okay with it and actually sees it as an opportunity to prepare even better for when she does test this time next year. However, I would give it to her in a minute, without reservation due to her outstanding character and ability.

[Jim]

It depends on what your definition of a black belt is.

Mine has to do with three things: Knowledge, Ability and Morality/Maturity.

Although a child may be able to demonstrate suitable standards in all of those points, I would have trouble getting over the hurdle (in my mind) that exists during and after reaching puberty.

Disabilities? Again, it would have to depend on your definition of black belt. If they meet my three level criteria I can't see why not.

[Bun-Bun]

Look, we're all going to have different opinions on what belts mean, and why or why not. Myself, I don't see much use in belts at all-- for adults at least, either you've got the skills or you don't, and anything else is frippery.

The two arguments I keep hearing for why belts are useful basically are these: First, belts are a useful means of encouraging people to practice and develop their skills. Second, belts are an easy way for the instructor to determine what subjects the student is ready for.

Both these arguments have some serious validity when applied to kids. Kids do need the occasional gold star (and so do adults!) so they know they're getting somewhere. And, since with kids you need a fixed curriculum, the belt rankings are an easy way to determine where in the curriculum they should be. You don't want to overwhelm or underchallenge anyone, but especially with kids, you have to gauge it very carefully.

So, yeah, let the kids have their black belts. They get special diplomas for graduating from elementary school, so what's the difference?

As for handicapped people-- I've mostly worked with the mentally challenged, and I've often considered trying to put together a program for them to learn martial arts. I *would* be handing out belts to them as rewards, just for trying, a la special olympics.

As for physically challenged individuals, that takes a bit more doing. When you break it down, each technique is meant to serve at least one or more purposes. If someone in a wheelchair develops a means of filling those roles, then there's no reason to hold him or her back.

That wasn't very clear, so let me try and example. Let's take our hypothetical student in a wheelchair, who's taking karate. She's supposed to learn forward stance and stomp kicks, but physically cannot. So, let's stop and think it over for a moment. Forward stance is supposed to be a strong, fixed stance-- so if she can develop a way to set her chair for maximum stability and immobility, that will fit the bill. As for the stomp kick, it's primarily an anti-kick jam. She develops the trick of charging forward a tad, and catching their shins on her footrests. That also fits the bill. So, since she's managed to meet all the purposes (if not the exact techniques) then why should she be held back?

[John J Hodges]

Well, I'll say what I said in another thread. Anyone who can be bent over your knee and spanked isn't a black belt. If someone's only goal is to be a black belt they should just go buy one. You can buy one for less than $10. Save yourself a lot of time and money. This is not meant as an attack against anyone.

A child just does not have the physical abilities, experience, and maturity needed. A black belt isn't just about abilities. It's about responsibility. I've seen some brown belts that could kick the dog out of a some shodans. Does that mean they should be also? There are a lot of factors in determining the results of a test. I do not think there is any clear answer. I also know that no ONE thing determines whether someone is a black belt, but there are plenty of things that determine if someone isn't a black belt.

My system won't even allow kids under 13 to train. There have been some exceptions, like me. I began training when I was 8, but I also didn't test for shodan until I was 19. I didn't become discouraged because I wasn't being tested. I knew that I was improving and that as long as I continued to train, I would continue to improve. This outlook has helped me be more oblective and introspective about my own training. I only mention this because I have nothing against children training. I do not think they should be coddled though. They need to have training that is grounded in reality. Which is, no matter how good an 8 year old may be, that 8 year old will not have a good chance of surviving against an adult.

[Andrew Green]

If this is your opinion, then I guess it will hard to convince you of the benefits of the belt system at all. So, I won't even attempt to.

You would, seeing as I spent a long time under a belt system, and have removed it and found not having it to be much better.

[moogong]

You would, seeing as I spent a long time under a belt system, and have removed it and found not having it to be much better.

Yeah dude, that's great.

[Bun-Bun]

Well, I'll say what I said in another thread. Anyone who can be bent over your knee and spanked isn't a black belt. If someone's only goal is to be a black belt they should just go buy one. You can buy one for less than $10. Save yourself a lot of time and money.

See, there's a contradiction in your statement. If anyone can go out and buy a belt for 10 bucks (which is true!) then the belt itself is meaningless. So if it is meaningless, there's no harm in giving it to kids as a kind-of "gold star".

What's more, I've met very mature and responsible adults who were nontheless the result of a McDojo. I could beat them easily and spank them-- dos that mean they didn't earn their belts? Belts are meaningless, it's skill that counts-- we all agree on that much. So, if it works as a goal for kids to learn something useful, then why not?

Oh, and incidentally-- around age 8, a child develops the coordination, musculature, and neruoconnective speed to land a knockout blow. The average eight-year old can theoretically land a lucky punch that'd flatten Mike Tyson.

I think I'll end this by having you take a look at my avatar, then close with this comment:
"Silly rabbit, belts are for kids!"

[tkdcanada]

If this maturity is there why do they need this display of external validation at all? Roughly equivilant to a sticker from a dentist with a big smily face of white teeth...

To an extent we all seek some type of external validation for our accomplishments from time to time. It has nothing to do with maturity or lack thereof. It's just nice.

[Tre]

I am glad to see the vaired opinions and ideas from you guys.

I understand the "gold star" idea for encouragement and the like. Yet I feel that giving a black belt or other term of mastery can, and often seems so, to give a child a inflated ego. I personally am against the belt system, in part because it seems focus students of a martial art on comparing their level to that of others, rarther than concerning themselves with introspection.

I do believe that children gain greatly from starting martial arts at a young age. I started taking judo when I was 4, and I believe that it really helped to make me the person I am today. I also believe that I gainned from the fact that my dojo required a long period of time and commitment before advancement to the next belt occurred.

On the subject on the physically handicapped, I too believe that such a person can gain a true mastery of a martial art. I do believe that it requires a greater teacher than is often found in the "McDojo's" of today. If the classes are just about learning how to punch and kick, then a person with a physical handicap is never able to gain much from the martial art.

Tre Argerious

[Wulf]

hey, if you wanna check out more on the whole child black belt subject, you should go see my post in Children and the Martial Arts. sorry, i dunno how to make a link! the post's called "Baby Black Belts" if you wanna look it up.