Information on the Sai

[AstreaEvania]

First off I should probably mention that although I've been interested in martial arts for a while, I'm just now starting to get serious about it. So if you could bear with my ignorance, it would be greatly appreciated.
I have a pair of sais which I purchased, used, about a year ago. The blades are badly dented and the leather grips have started to disintegrate. Needless to say, I wish to purchase a new pair and this time around I plan to do it right. I was wondering what the pros and cons are of round vs. octagonal blades. I've scoured the internet in search of stores that sell sais, but everywhere I go they seem to be the same ones. Namely, chrome-plated forged steel. The ones I've found generally range from $30-$40. I've also searched on Ebay and found, yet again, the seemingly "standard" ones. So to get to the point, I was wondering if anyone knew of a reputable place where I could purchase good quality sais. I realize that the better quality ones will be more expensive. Unfortunately, I do have a limit on how much I can spend, and am therefore looking for a pair under or around $100.
I am also looking for information on how to use the sai. I have a book by Fumio Demura (spelling?) and while it has alot of photographs of stances and such, I'm really looking for some training exercises I can do. I would like to join a dojo so I could receive proper instruction but I don't think there are any dojos in my area which offer training in some form of Okinawan Kobudo. Any comments would be much appreaciated.

[Pacificshore]

Hello:

In regards to the difference between the octagon vs. round type sai, I think it comes down to personal preference. I have owned both types, and currently use the round version. I do know that the octagon tends to show more of the niks and dings than the round sai.

Most of the sai you see on the market are as you have stated, "standard". When you start to look at the more expensive made sai, it'll generally cost more than $100.00 dollars. Shureido(as in the karate gi) makes their own brand of kobudo weaponry. I have a pair of their sai, and it was not cheap. However, it was worth the $$ spent, and you'll notice the difference in balance, and weight. The "standard" ones, depending where you purchase them from can be light or heavy, thus throwing the balance off.

There are sites on the internet where you can get a custom pair made, and that's what I am hoping to do down the line. Well I hope this is of some use to you, and good luck in your weapons training.

Regards,

Gene Reyes

[AstreaEvania]

I have heard the Shureido sai are of good quality and had them recommended to me before but I couldn't find a website or anything on the internet. Would you happen to know where I could purchase some?

Thanks,
Æ

[Pacificshore]

http://www.karateshorinkan.com/store/p000100.htm


This is one place where I found them for sale. I'm sure there are other places, just have to do a more extensive search


http://www.rohaima.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?

Here's another

[Jack Stay]

The difference between the octoganal shaped sai, as opposed to the rounded sai, is that the round sai is safe for practice, while the edges on the octoganal sai are supposed to lay the skin open when you slap the fork upside your enemy's skull, temple, or face. (Same as for the round vs. octoganal nunchakus, the edge is supposed to lay skin open upon striking).

In a combat situation, an octagonal sai with a sharpened center point would be used; the primary purpose of the sai is defense against the sword; and when wielded by the expert, the sai's resemble the speed of batons being twirled by a cheerleader.

The tongs of the sai can also be used to twist the wrist jiu-jitsu fashion. Altogether, a good close quarters minor (ko) weapon.
____________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Pacificshore]

Although I won't disagree with the octagon shaped sai splitting skin if struck, I think that the sai itself was originally a farm tool like the tonfa, and nunchuk were. As it was transformed into a tool for combat, it was used not only as a blunt force type weapon, but also a stabbing weapon to penetrate the armor of the Samurai. So whether it was a round or octagon shaped sai, they did have a pointed tip. And yes the side tongs were used to trap swords, as well as wrists of the sword wielder.

GR

[Jack Stay]

Although I won't disagree with the octagon shaped sai splitting skin if struck, I think that the sai itself was originally a farm tool like the tonfa, and nunchuk were. As it was transformed into a tool for combat, it was used not only as a blunt force type weapon, but also a stabbing weapon to penetrate the armor of the Samurai. So whether it was a round or octagon shaped sai, they did have a pointed tip. And yes the side tongs were used to trap swords, as well as wrists of the sword wielder.

GR

Yes, all the ko-budo weapons of Okinawa were originally farm tools: the bo (used as a carrying stick); tonfa (used as a mill stone handle); nunchaku (a rice flail); kama (sickle); and the sai (pitch fork). Other kobudo weapons include: turtle shells (as a shield), nets, rope, and oar, and a wide band of leather to entrap the samurai sword (you gotta see this one to believe it).

Again, all kobudo weapons were of the last resort, since it was death for the Okinawan peasant to be caught with a weapon (spear, sword, bow & arrow). The Okinawan peasant was forced to defend himself with common work implements, including the bare hand, i.e. Okinawa Te.

Now, various types of SAI were developed according to the various styles of Okinawa Te that used it. Also, the SAI was modified to each individuals preference; for instance, some Sai's had an enlonged central tine, or some Sai's had extra-large side tongs for gripping the sword blade or wrist. And yes, the central tine was sharpened into a lethal point. And the handle has that geodedic shaped ball for a downward strike against the head or collarbone, or for linear strikes in lieu of a punch.

I've always liked the Sai, it was my weapon while studying Uechi-Ryu, but there was no contemporary application, you can no more walk down the street carrying a Sai than you could carrying a Tiger Fork, or else I would have a Sai slipped into my belt at all times.
___________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Andrew Green]

Although I won't disagree with the octagon shaped sai splitting skin if struck, I think that the sai itself was originally a farm tool like the tonfa, and nunchuk were. As it was transformed into a tool for combat, it was used not only as a blunt force type weapon, but also a stabbing weapon to penetrate the armor of the Samurai. So whether it was a round or octagon shaped sai, they did have a pointed tip. And yes the side tongs were used to trap swords, as well as wrists of the sword wielder.

GR

Sai where never a farm tool, nor where they used to fight samurai. Just myths with no basis.

Sai where basically a law enforcement weapon used by the Pechin class.

Sai are no match for a sword.

On a practical level round ones won't destroy wooden weapons that they bang into as quickly, apart from that it's just personal preferance

note: Sai are not even unique to Okinawa, they also exist in Indonesia as "Tjabang" and one or two other names I believe. But always as a weapon, not a farm tool.

Bo - Staffs are used as weapons in every country and culture, don't need to try and invent a farm tool use for one.

Bo and Sai where the weapons of the "police" in Okinawa. Many of the others originated as farm tools and are considered "peasant" weapons. Hence the reason that they are not as developed and most kata for them are recent creations.

[Pacificshore]

Sai where basically a law enforcement weapon used by the Pechin class.

Stories on the Origin of the Sai
One story suggests that the sai made its way into Ryukyuan history by following the path of Buddhism, migrating from India to China to Okinawan. The shape of the sai were designed in the image of the human body; after the monks who carried them for protection. While there is little way to ascertain the veracity of this story, it remains an interesting projection.
Another, more modern story that martial artists often hear is that the practice of the sai originated with the Okinawan police force who carried the sai as their personal "side-arm" to control crowds and apprehend criminals. This story gains credibility because one of Okinawa's leading sai practitioners was Kanagushiku (Kinjo) Ufuchiku, a highly regarded police captain who lived from 1841-1926. But if the sai was the required weapon for the police, Sensei Oshiro believes that there would be some evidence in recorded laws or regulations from the previous century in Okinawan history. To date Sensei Oshiro says that he hasn't been able to find any proof in his research that supports this story. He thinks that the sai had a much wider following in the Okinawan martial arts community.


Just FYI, perhaps due to the lack of written history from the martial countries, we will never really know truth from fiction...just a thought.

[Jack Stay]

I don't really want to quibble, but it is my understanding that the 'Jutte' was a police weapon, and also a symbol of authority for those officials not acquainted with its use.

The sai was definately used by the peasants in Okinawa to fend off the samurai incursions against that island (In 1600 it was the Satsuma Samurai who invaded the Ryuryuku archipelago, which includes Okinawa, and established martial law).

All the kobudo weapons: bo, tonfa, nunchaku, and the sai were used against the sword.

No the sai is not unique to Okinawa, a pitchfork is a ubiquitous farm implement found throughout the world, but the sai did develop from a pitchfork type of farm implement.

A sai is no match for a sword? Almost every sai kata I learned in Uechi-ryu was to attack and defend against the sword!

Again, the jutte was a law enforcement instrument used extensively during the Meiji Restoration (1868-1910) against the samurai when their class was outlawed.

The use of the Sai or a sai like kobudo weapon by Okinawa peasants has all been historically documented. How has the history of the sai changed?

Thanks!
___________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

Sai where never a farm tool, nor where they used to fight samurai. Just myths with no basis.

Sai where basically a law enforcement weapon used by the Pechin class.

Sai are no match for a sword.

On a practical level round ones won't destroy wooden weapons that they bang into as quickly, apart from that it's just personal preferance

note: Sai are not even unique to Okinawa, they also exist in Indonesia as "Tjabang" and one or two other names I believe. But always as a weapon, not a farm tool.

Bo - Staffs are used as weapons in every country and culture, don't need to try and invent a farm tool use for one.

Bo and Sai where the weapons of the "police" in Okinawa. Many of the others originated as farm tools and are considered "peasant" weapons. Hence the reason that they are not as developed and most kata for them are recent creations.

[riku]

Pacificshore-
remember that forum has full name rule; that is, you have to sign all posts with your real, full name (first and last), or have nic that includes full name.

Riku Ylönen

[AstreaEvania]

Thanks for the links and the info. From what I've read about the sai, the general opinion is that they were originally used as farm tools and as concealed weapons by the police. However, I also recall reading that those stories were just "myth". I guess we may never know the truth. I have heard the sai referred to as jang tan-do, and was wondering if anyone knew where that name came from. Also, would anyone happen to know the martial arts in which one will eventually train with the sai?

Always & Forever,
Æ

[Jack Stay]

Thanks for the links and the info. From what I've read about the sai, the general opinion is that they were originally used as farm tools and as concealed weapons by the police. However, I also recall reading that those stories were just "myth". I guess we may never know the truth. I have heard the sai referred to as jang tan-do, and was wondering if anyone knew where that name came from. Also, would anyone happen to know the martial arts in which one will eventually train with the sai?

Always & Forever,
Æ

Any of the Okinawan styles of karate will use a ko-budo weapon, including the sai.

Try this Isshinryu karate website:

http://w3.trib.com/~smammon/isshin.html

it has a nice SAI katas, SAI history, and some SAI techniques.

Yours,

John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Andrew Green]

http://www.ryukyu-kobudo.com/page8.html for a basic weapons history.

Okinawan Peasants fighting off samurai is a myth. Sai is no match for bo, except in choreographed routines. Nut then I could beat a sword with a paper towel roll under those conditions too...

Sai kata are not done against a sword, except under modern re-interpretations.

No farmer is going to beat a professional warrior with superior weaponry and armor. It is just not going to happen. It is a nice story to sell memberships on.

[Jack Stay]

http://www.ryukyu-kobudo.com/page8.html for a basic weapons history.

Okinawan Peasants fighting off samurai is a myth. Sai is no match for bo, except in choreographed routines. Nut then I could beat a sword with a paper towel roll under those conditions too...

Sai kata are not done against a sword, except under modern re-interpretations.

No farmer is going to beat a professional warrior with superior weaponry and armor. It is just not going to happen. It is a nice story to sell memberships on.

It is a historical truism that no farmer is going to beat a professional warrior with superior weaponry and armor, and neither did the Okinawan peasant, which is why Okinawa was occupied for 200 years. Karate was ineffective against the Samurai's Jiu-jitsu.

YET - the Okinawan peasant did fight back. In one remarkable instance an Okinawan farmer killed a fully armored Samurai on horseback using a sharpened bamboo spear, but this happened only once and was noteworthy for its occurance. It is also recorded that some villages achieved minor victories in skirmishes against the Samurai, but overall, they remained occupied by the Satsuma Samurai.

But it is a historical fact that the Okinawan peasants developed weapons from farm implements, including the SAI, and used them against the katana.

The Okinawan styles of Karate have carried on that tradition of modified farm implements in their katas against the Bo and Katana.

A serious problem using the internet for historical research is that the Internet is an open forum - subject to verification like any other source of information. Each website varies on its information.

But thanks for this website.
_______________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Andrew Green]

Remember, the sai is not an original weapon to Okinawa. They did not first develop it as a weapon. It was brought from India through China as a weapon, not as a farm tool.

Some of the Okinawan weapons did come from farm tools, this has led to the common belief that they all did.

[Jack Stay]

Remember, the sai is not an original weapon to Okinawa. They did not first develop it as a weapon. It was brought from India through China as a weapon, not as a farm tool.

Some of the Okinawan weapons did come from farm tools, this has led to the common belief that they all did.

I believe this is the point of contention in our posts.

I agree that the Okinawan peasant in 1600 did not invent the Sai, but I disagree that the Sai came down to Okinawa in the form which we see it today. I disagree that the sai came to Okinawa already as a usable weapon. It would have been impossible for the peasant to possess any more for the Okinawan peasant to possess a spear, sword, halberd, or bow.

Can you direct me to a source showing the presence of the Sai on Okinawa prior to the Satsuma samurai occupation of 1600? Or an example of an Okinawan sai to be compared with one developed in India or China? I cannot find any.

Or even the existance of Karate (Okinawa-te) prior to the occupation? These were developed as a result of that occupation, as an act of desperation.

I'm sure a sai like weapon had developed in other areas of Asia, and the Okinawans were aware of such a development. But I am not convinced that the complete weapon called a Sai was secretly transported to the villages of Okinawan peasants were it was used along with the tonfa, kama, bo, nunchaku.

But I will keep your research and opinion in mind as a further research this interesting debate.

Thanks!
_______________________________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[Andrew Green]

Look for the tjabang of Indonesian Arts. It is definately a sai

The other point is who used them. Sai where not a peasant weapon, they where a lower end of the upper class weapon.

It was not the Japanese that banned weapons. It was the Okinawans themselves. The Japanese just reinforced the ban when they arrived.

[AstreaEvania]

Thanks very much for the historical information!

Always & Forever,
Æ

[n2shotokai]

It is my understanding that much of the confusion over kobudo history is due to the lack of written history on the subject. Over the years assumptions have been made which in the last 10 years or so have been found to be incorrect. There are so many opinions and speculations that I personally take everything with a grain of salt and huge dose of skepticism.

I do not state this to be controversial but to point out there is much misinformation when it comes to Okinawan kobudo.