Ki " Inner Engergy "?

[IFKQ80]

I don't understand many things about Ki " inner energy " all I know is that it's located in the Tandan and it makes you stronger in different way's !! But I'm sure there is more into it, I hope someone can explain it to me?



I even hear people say something like you can knockout someone with your Ki without touching him/her " hmm Strange ", I saw some video clip's of Ushiba " the founder of Aikido" doing some strange things to his student's with out even touching them is that true " with respect to him of course " ?



Need more information if anyone can help I would be more then happy?

http://p.creantor.online.fr/Aikido/OSENSE-N.MPEG

[Jack Stay]

I am a big believer in 'ki' (chi or qi). I believe it exists, but I do not believe its an energy beam eminating from your fingertips at will to knock over objects or enemies.

My only analogy for Ki is the familiar story of a mother who see's her child trapped under a truck; and somehow, in a very excited state, she lifts that truck off her kid.

How did she do that?

Scientists and physicians offer the rational explanation of a sudden rush of adrenalin. Philosophers say it was done with sheer will power.

Yet fighters have been in excited states without a superhuman rush of adrenalin, nor has only 'will power' sufficed to save the day.

Personally I think that the extreme combination of will power first, biology second, which formed an act of 'ki', is what enabled that female to lift a truck up off her kid.

And I agree with the contention of yogis and martial artists that an act of 'ki' can be learned and applied to your Judo technique, sword techique, reverse punch, kick, etc. right on down the line. This can be done through proper physical training, meditative training, proper 'Secret Asian Diet' and an awareness that 'ki' can manifest itself in certain situations.

Again, I don't believe 'ki' is a ray beam emanating from your navel, or finger tips, or an inch above the eyebrows, knocking enemies out of the way.

Other opinions welcomed!
___________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[kenkyusha]

The thing that stands-out when watching tape of Ueshiba Morihei (or Mifune Kyuzo, or anyone good for that matter), is the timing and sensitivity with which they apply their techniques.

Particularly in the first technique, watch how Ueshiba sensei connects to uke through the grips *before* making any attempt to throw him.

Most of what is hyped as 'ki-techniques' are applications of basic physics... throwing folks w/out (much if any) contact is dependant on a couple of factors:
1) having someone who isn't afraid to fall
2) someone who has a reaction (normally a self-preservation response)
3) having a good, committed attack
4) excellent timing and body control (and probably a bunch of other things... the folks who can do it always say it's easy... right...). YMMV.

Be well,
Jigme

[Jack Stay]

The thing that stands-out when watching tape of Ueshiba Morihei (or Mifune Kyuzo, or anyone good for that matter), is the timing and sensitivity with which they apply their techniques.

Particularly in the first technique, watch how Ueshiba sensei connects to uke through the grips *before* making any attempt to throw him.

Most of what is hyped as 'ki-techniques' are applications of basic physics... throwing folks w/out (much if any) contact is dependant on a couple of factors:
1) having someone who isn't afraid to fall
2) someone who has a reaction (normally a self-preservation response)
3) having a good, committed attack
4) excellent timing and body control (and probably a bunch of other things... the folks who can do it always say it's easy... right...). YMMV.

Be well,
Jigme

While demonstrating techniques and having a good uke, every thing goes well and the technique is perfect. Watching the pictures of OSensei was typical of the tori/uke relationship. I saw no demonstration of 'ki'. And I don't know if this uncaptioned film was supposed to be a 'ki' demonstration or just a 'ki' development exercise demonstration?

The scientific explantion of 'ki' will always be empirical, and the philosophical explanation of 'ki' will always be existential. But I still think 'ki' exists and can be taught to appear when needed.
_____________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[riku]

IFQ-
Remember the full name rule:
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5142

Riku Ylönen

[Shugotenshi]

I'm gonna try to keep this short. Through all I've collected throughout my past year of religious distraint and my search for a real solid truth to believe in, this is pretty much what all my searching boiled down to.

IN MY OPINION:

Chi is god, god is the energy that brings life to everything, this energy is chi. Chi is in all of us, it is our soul, what powers our body, what's at the root of the wind blowing, the trees growing, and even the universe moving. This is our soul, notice after death, the only thing that leaves the body is the soul. After this, the body is little more then an object. I'm not gonna get into that. You all get the picture.

As a Reiki practitioner I believe there is functional use of Chi energy. Since it is in everything as a mass, and even in the air we breathe (though not as 'thick' as in a vessel) we can 'use' it. You can't just summon it, you have to learn to use it, kind of channel it, that's what the masters do, they channel the energy to their arms, legs, or body to absorb blows better. There's 3 types of training, mind, body, and spirit. And to use that Chi energy in the method you wish, you need a lot of Spiritual Training. Then maybe you can make fireballs and spirit bombs...

[Jack Stay]

Could you give a quick explanation of what 'Reiki' entails and how it applys to ki (Chi)?

Thanks!
___________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.

[kenkyusha]

While demonstrating techniques and having a good uke, every thing goes well and the technique is perfect. Watching the pictures of OSensei was typical of the tori/uke relationship. I saw no demonstration of 'ki'. And I don't know if this uncaptioned film was supposed to be a 'ki' demonstration or just a 'ki' development exercise demonstration? [snip]

Agreed, what Ueshiba sensei was doing was not some fantastic feat of esoteric energy. That's the point. Whether his uke were tanking for him or not (some expressed after his death that they had become 'conditioned' to get out of the way/fall because he'd just hit them if they didn't), those 3 waza were not anything that any reasonably talented practitioner w/10+ years under his belt couldn't do.

For demonstrations of absolutely amazing (as in, they look fake) skill, check out Don Angier (Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei) or Seigo Okamoto (Daito Ryu Roppokai)... though neither attribute their impressive abilities to 'ki'.

Be well,
Jigme

[Cliff Hargrave]

Well I believe...............

Chi/Ki is Eastern religion and culture mumbo jumbo that was carried over into martial arts. It does not exist, it is a fairy tale, and people could better use the time they are wasting chasing this mythical thing in sparring or bag work.

It always amazes me to see folks caught up in the pressure point knockouts, no-touch knockouts, Kiai knockouts, etc. Why don't you perfect your straight right knock out? Has anyone actually seen any of these serminar warriors actually fight? For every true "believer" I will show you ten that will stand there and laugh at you while you try to channel you Ki.

If you train hard, train correctly, and train for many years, you will be able to do things that look amazing to other people. That doesn't mean you have any special mystical energy. Some parts of the body hurt more than others when they are hit, kicked, or pinched. That doesn't mean you injected Ki into them and disrupted their "energy flow."

Some people believe in UFOs, some in the Loch Ness monster, some in Bigfoot, and some believe in Chi/Ki. When someone kiai's at Tank Abott and knocks him out, or touches Cro-Cops arm and causes him to drop like a hillbilly at a Benny Hinn convention, then I might try it.

[Dennis Monk]

Chi is god, god is the energy that brings life to everything, this energy is chi. Chi is in all of us, it is our soul, what powers our body,

I am sorry. I will word this so as not to sound argumentative. That being said:
What are you saying?

If chi is God, and chi is our soul, then our soul is God. So that means that there are presently somewhere in the neighborhood of seven billion gods floating around this earth jockeying for position to be the ultimate supreme being. Come on now, you really believe this? I am not trying to take a religious high ground here, but if I must....

My book says that, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." So who's chi was it anyway? Who's chi created the chi of the chi that did all of this?

[Jack Stay]

I am sorry. I will word this so as not to sound argumentative. That being said:
What are you saying?

If chi is God, and chi is our soul, then our soul is God. So that means that there are presently somewhere in the neighborhood of seven billion gods floating around this earth jockeying for position to be the ultimate supreme being. Come on now, you really believe this? I am not trying to take a religious high ground here, but if I must....

My book says that, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." So who's chi was it anyway? Who's chi created the chi of the chi that did all of this?

I must agree with Dennis here.

I separate meditation from prayer, and most certainly 'ki' (Chi or Qi) from God.

So I meditate to improve 'ki' development; and pray to commune with God.

And if 'Ki' does exist, its only because of God's will.

Christianity is a monotheist, teleological belief system, so this would be a very Western approach to the martial arts, that God is the primer mover and custodian of all existance.

This is how I approach every metaphysical concept the martial arts have thrown at me. Including the concept of 'ki', which I believe to exist.
_______________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Pero]

Ki (Qi=Chi=Prana) is everywhere. It is in us, in the air, the trees, rocks... I wouldn´t say that ki is god though. Ki is energy. It is also called bio-electricity. You can "train" your ki with meditation, qigong or anything else where you use your intent. If you want to learn more about it and how to improve your health read Awaken healing energy through the dao by Mantak Chia. In it there is an excellent meditation. Another book that was recomended to me (I haven´t bought it yet) is The way of energy by Lam Kam-Chuen which describes ba duan jin qigong. I am a practicioner of ba duan jin so I can say that it is an excellent exercise.

To Cliff:

As far as I know an indian monk Bodhidharma (Da Mo) created a form of qigong for the shaolin monks which improved their health and strength. So if it worked for them... If qi doesn´t exist, how do you explain acupuncture or reiki then? Could you please tell me why do you so firmly believe that qi doesn´t exist?

[Cliff Hargrave]

To Cliff:

As far as I know an indian monk Bodhidharma (Da Mo) created a form of qigong for the shaolin monks which improved their health and strength. So if it worked for them... If qi doesn´t exist, how do you explain acupuncture or reiki then? Could you please tell me why do you so firmly believe that qi doesn´t exist?

Accupuncture is flawed science and doesn't do near the things it claims. The ONLY thing acupuncture has had any success in is limited pain relief and the percentages are not much better than placebos. It ranks around holistic medicine, herbs, and new age stuff.

Chi/ki doesn't exist because it doesn't exist. Many people can believe it but that doesn't make it true. It is eastern culture and religion and became intermixed with martial arts because that is what they believed. It had nothing to do with martial arts and everything to do with religion. It is also contrary to my own personal religious beliefs.

All chi/ki demos are parlor tricks. There is no energy flowing through people that can be channeled or disrupted. Martial arts ability is based on your own technical ability, your physical attributes, and your mental ability to execute same.

If I train a martial artist and teach him to break a board with proper technique, use of body mechanics, and concentration, he can break the board.

If I train a martial artist and teach him to break a board with proper technique, use of body mechanics, and concentration AND tell him to channel his Ki while doing it and fill his head full of mumbo jumbo he will still break the board. Only this time he think some inner energy allowed him to do it. Thus the cycle is started.

This is MY opinion based on my experiences. Feel free to prove me wrong. Over the past 25 years I have worked out with Juko Kai guys, Dillman followers, Glenn Morris folks, and a number of others. They all make me laugh as they write their checks to these guys and their fighting ability gets worse.

They would be better served sparring or working out then by meditating and walking on hot coals.

People are free to believe whatever they want, but if they post their beliefs on a public forum then I am free to post mine. I see real violence all the time in my job and I think it's morally wrong to teach someone that this mumbo jumbo will actually benefit them in a real fight.

[Pero]

You speak from experience and express your opinion. Well so do I. It has been my expirience that these "things" exist. Everyone has the right to their own beliefs.

You said that a martial artist can break a board using proper technique, proper body mechanics and concentration. Well, the mind leads the Ki. So if you have good concentration you can lead Ki easier to break the board. You may imagine that the board is breaking or that you are striking through the board or something like that, but that is still a way of leading Ki. Proper body mechanics and technique allow better "channeling" of Ki. So even if you don´t tell your student that he is using Ki, he will still be using it. I won´t try to convince you that Ki exists as that would be impossible over the net. I am just telling you my opinion.

[Jack Stay]

You speak from experience and express your opinion. Well so do I. It has been my expirience that these "things" exist. Everyone has the right to their own beliefs.

You said that a martial artist can break a board using proper technique, proper body mechanics and concentration. Well, the mind leads the Ki. So if you have good concentration you can lead Ki easier to break the board. You may imagine that the board is breaking or that you are striking through the board or something like that, but that is still a way of leading Ki. Proper body mechanics and technique allow better "channeling" of Ki. So even if you don´t tell your student that he is using Ki, he will still be using it. I won´t try to convince you that Ki exists as that would be impossible over the net. I am just telling you my opinion.

I think Cliff just rushed by the answer without realizing it when he listed 'concentration' as an ingrediant to board breaking.

Concentration is needed for the development of 'ki'.

The karate people call it 'focus', ju-jitus people call it 'meditation', Judo people call it 'pychotundra' [sp?] and the kenjitsu people call it 'santori' - the proper mental state just prior to a serious exertion which will call upon hidden reserves of energy. Just try and break board without concentrating, you will learn that it is a required ingrediant to success!
_____________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Jim Perkins]

I do understand why their is so much dibelief of Ki/Chi/Qi and I fault that to many reasons but mostly comunication.
Acupuncture is nothing magical it is nothing new it’s from an old and different culture than our own TCM. No TCM is not magical it is not perfect and the same can be said for western medicine’s just turn on your TV and watch the adds fly by some work, some cause side affects, some you get the some reaction from a placebo.
In old china many true masters were considered doctors to today standards they used there skills to heal people they learned the body structure, acupuncture, massage, and herbalism. Many of today’s medicines come from their studies. Religious beliefs had nothing to do with it then or should it in today’s time. Everyone believe in it or not has Chi (Ki/Qi) with out it you would be dead. Chi is TCM terms is the energy that is circulating throughout the body, with out energy in your body the brain would not work the heart would not pump just because you cannot see it does not mean it does not exist.
Energy Definition: The capacity of acting or being active/ vigorous exertion of power/ usable power/ the resources for producing such power.
Granted there have always been those that twist something to meet there goals of making a buck. But the same can be said for anything not just MA this is the world we live in. So it goes one bad apple spoils the bunch, but there are those who act professional responsible in teaching the history, concepts and keeping them in perspective as to where and how the relate today’s martial artist.

[Luebbers]

I'm going to quote myself on this one:

"This is one of those things I've always wanted to research and write and in-depth thesis on. Here's the way I look at it. Chi is energy. That's all it is. There's nothing magical about energy. Every action you take every day of your life is just a combination of potential and kinetic energy.

With a martial artist, he (or she) know how to correctly use body posture and coordination of correct muscles to maximize this energy when delivering a technique. While physique and muscle development also play a role, a kickboxer who knows how to correctly coordinate the movement of his trunk, hips, legs, knees, etc. is going to be able to kick exponentially harder than some linebacker with tree-trunk legs.

In that sense, yes, chi is real. Your body movements generate energy, and by correctly coordinating these movements, when you strike and opponent, the energy is transerferred kinetically to him or her.

Where I think the mysticism comes in is the use of technique to create power. In the example above where a small person with technique could hit harder than just a strong person, people are perplexed because in their minds they think bigger must hit harder (and this is obviously true to a certain extent). But I think it's just because most peope are unaccustomed to it in that context. Imagine that you'd never seen golf before. Take the biggest lumberjack you can find, hand him a golf club and let him swing away. If he even hits the ball, it's probably going nowhere. Now let Tiger Woods, a 180lb kid take a whack at it and he can drive the ball 280 yards down the fairway. If you'd never seen anything like that before and Tiger says, "Yeah, I psyched up my chi and unleashed it on this golf ball..." - we've got a new master in the house."

[Jack Stay]

I'm going to quote myself on this one:

"This is one of those things I've always wanted to research and write and in-depth thesis on. Here's the way I look at it. Chi is energy. That's all it is. There's nothing magical about energy. Every action you take every day of your life is just a combination of potential and kinetic energy.

With a martial artist, he (or she) know how to correctly use body posture and coordination of correct muscles to maximize this energy when delivering a technique. While physique and muscle development also play a role, a kickboxer who knows how to correctly coordinate the movement of his trunk, hips, legs, knees, etc. is going to be able to kick exponentially harder than some linebacker with tree-trunk legs.

In that sense, yes, chi is real. Your body movements generate energy, and by correctly coordinating these movements, when you strike and opponent, the energy is transerferred kinetically to him or her.

Where I think the mysticism comes in is the use of technique to create power. In the example above where a small person with technique could hit harder than just a strong person, people are perplexed because in their minds they think bigger must hit harder (and this is obviously true to a certain extent). But I think it's just because most peope are unaccustomed to it in that context. Imagine that you'd never seen golf before. Take the biggest lumberjack you can find, hand him a golf club and let him swing away. If he even hits the ball, it's probably going nowhere. Now let Tiger Woods, a 180lb kid take a whack at it and he can drive the ball 280 yards down the fairway. If you'd never seen anything like that before and Tiger says, "Yeah, I psyched up my chi and unleashed it on this golf ball..." - we've got a new master in the house."

Hello Michael,

Interesting and well thought out article. I think you are very close to a good working definition of Chi (ki).

In your first paragraph you said Chi was energy. Then you mentioned that the mysticism comes in by using technique to create power.

I think if you put them both together, you are on the correct path to arriving at Chi (Ki).

It is a fact that Zen monks can sustain continued Alpha waves during meditation 'at will'. It has been proven Yogis can control their autonomous bodily functions, i.e. increase or decrease blood pressure, or heart rate, 'at will'. It is well understood that if you accidently hit a man "in the right place" you could kill him, and some say these 'right places' can be learned and struck, 'at will'. And there is the well known story of a mother who lifted a vehicle off her child, by herself, 'at will'.

Obviously I'm making the point that biological energy can be channeled 'at will'; and this must be accepted if a practitioner is to believe that they can channel a certain type of biological energy, which has been called 'Chi' or 'Ki' or 'Qi', as claimed by mystics, yogis, and some martial arts practitioners.

Of course good form is necessary in the transference of mechanical energy to the target in the martial arts - yet it is claimed that there is something else. Something else that 'adds' to that mechanical energy summoned up by sheer will power.

Now we are getting closer to 'Chi'. That 'something else' might be called by scientists a sudden adrenalin rush in response to a traumatic life threatening situation. But this extra jolt of energy would be uncontrolled and just a natural biological 'fight or flight' reflex.

BUT when that extra jolt of energy can be controlled, and summoned at will, as some exponents claim, then you have arrived at a 'Chi' experience.

In philosophy, 'Will' is studied under a philosophical branch called Epistemology, the study of the nature of knowledge. The Mind/Body connection has been a subject of long debate amongst Western philosophers.

Willpower is accepted amongst the existentialists and denied amongst the empiricists. I, being an existentialist, fully believe that there are mental and physical exercises, just as Yogis have mastered Yoga to control their heart beats, which can be used to both develop Chi and train the individual to summon Chi 'at will'. Psyche yourself up to win, sort to speak.

I do not believe Chi is a force field or beams emanating from one's fingertips to knock over objects or opponents without touching them. And neither do I feel that Morihei Uyeshiba, Aikido's founder, thought so either.

Thanks!
_____________________
John 'Jack' Stay

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes-

[Cliff Hargrave]

It is well understood that if you accidently hit a man "in the right place" you could kill him, and some say these 'right places' can be learned and struck, 'at will'.

In the head............with a hammer

And there is the well known story of a mother who lifted a vehicle off her child, by herself, 'at will'.

Urban legend.

[DaftestScientist]

Ki = energy..no simpler or complex. Why do you eat? Not because your body needs food to run, but because our bodies break down food into energy to run. How can buddist monks withstand from eating food and still maintain an active level of energy? Because the have trained their MIND to accept energy from different locations. If you breathe properly, you can eat less because you recieve more energy from oxygen. Yogis have well proven the power of energy and will. And when one can focus the mind on the bodily energy, you have managed to have at your complete access the power of your bodily energy.

(E=MC^2) = (Energy = Matter * Large Constant) = (Energy = Everything = Ki)

That explains why an above poster claimed Ki = God because in essence, as science has proven everything when viewed in a different manner (i.e. not using human sensory features, everything is just energy. WE are all creatures that are comprised of energy, so when we can better use our mind to focus and channel our energy through will, you have someone who is in control of their ki.

Scott Furtado