judging the legitimacy of a school?

[Jeff Burger]

Chan Poi is a good teacher and a hell of a nice guy.
I wish he were still here in Boston.


Jeff

[J.S.T.]

It was (or is) called Kung Fu T'oa. Try a web search on it.

[sean_stonehart]

J.S.T. ... please sign your posts with your full name (First & Last). You can do this by editing your profile by going to USER CP (at the top of the screen) & the clicking on "Signature" & adding it there. You agreed to do this when you accepted the Terms of Service for the board.

[kodanjaclay]

JST,

Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. Let me give you a hint. Persians inhabited the general area of Iraq and Iran... so YES there is an Iraqi and/or Iranian teaching in a military town in the US... besides that, Persians do NOT speak Chinese and Kung Fu is a Chinese word. So by definition, there cannot be Persian Kung Fu. That combination makes no sense whatsoever... but don't take my word for it... do a scholarly research on Kung Fu. Incidentally, Kung Fu is Chinese for attainment after great effor, or simply great effort. It has little to do with MA in the first place.

Stop believing rhetroic, and take your own advice. Research.

[Jeff Burger]

Just because someone is teaching an in Persia doesnt make it a Persian art.
They just transplanted a Chinese art.

On a side Muslims did have influence on Chinese arts. People usually think of Shaolin / Buddhist arts but there were Muslim temples too.
Many CMA contain Tam Tui in there history, Tam Tui was a Muslim Temple art.
Look at the Chinese broadsword. Its looks alot like the Persian Scimitar, Im was told (dont how true it is) that the Chinese broadsword comes from the Persian Scimitar.

Jeff

[sean_stonehart]

Jeff... I see what you're saying & I'm personally a big fan of the Chinese Muslim arts, but that Toas stuff isn't a Chinese Muslim art. It reminds me of "a bit of this, a little of that & a smattering of the other" ...

Plus they insist on using the phrase "kung fu" inconjunction with no verifiable reference to China. If the term "Persian Martial Art" were used kinda like RMA, what's the issue? But on the site, it's all over it... Toas Kung Fu... sparring with a dao & wu dip dao that doesn't show the first lick of CMA weapon training???? C'mon... it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, looks like a duck....

[kodanjaclay]

Jeff,

This is NOT persian Kung Fu:

<<The mission of this site is to develop and strengthen the global Network for Kung Fu To'a practitioners, and to secure recognition and understanding of this unique Martial Art. Kung Fu TO'A Was created by Grand master professor Ibrahim Mirzaii during 50s and 70s. This Kung Fu style is emerged from Taoism, doctrine practice in Buddhist temples and by Chinese Taoists. Kung Fu Toa is deeply rooted in an understanding human physiology and is designed to help the Kung Fu Ka unleash the unlimited power that lies within each of us.

Before relocating to China, Ibrahim Mirzaii was of few people to have an undescribable love for martial arts. so much that the Iranian government gave him a fully payed scholarship and a chance to choose from China, Japan or Korea. Opting for china, it was there he iniciated the Kung Fu.

After many years of intensive study and harduous training in the Art of Kung Fu, thought necessary the relocation from China to India, to complete his knowledge of Yoga mediation. the studying and understanding of these arts, allowed Mirzaii to conclude that all these arts, by him previously studied, although efficient, were nevertheless, Incomplete. >>

derived from: http://kungfutoa.8m.com/

Want to try again? Persian Kung Fu would have developed over time in Persia... not transplanted with a few modificiations.

[J.S.T.]

Sorry, when I hear the term "kung Fu" the definiton "hard work" or "time and Energy" comes to mind. It is merely a matter of "semantics" I suppose. (Yes I know that I like to use "qoutation marks" too much. )

The response that I recieved from my comment reminds me of some of my first lessons in the academy (or should I say "Dojo"....or "temple" )

Anyway, Master Safakhoo's school has much to offer but you must put forth much hard work, time and energy.

[kodanjaclay]

No need for apologies. Like I indicated, I met him, and found him to be quite arrogant. Anyone who is going to make comments such as being unimpressed with another's lineage, and infers that his style is the only combat effective art is blind. That is purely my opinion, but that is the way I feel. Sad thing is, I have a background in Kung Fu and would have been interested in seeing more about his art, but I don't feel it is necessary to subject oneself to arrogance to do it.

[J.S.T.]

I understand your point on not wanting to be subjected arrogance in order to learn martial arts, but on the other hand...there is something to be said of those who embrace the elements which wear away their own ego. PLEASE do not misunderstand me. I do not think that Safakhoo is arrogant, and I do not think that you are egotistical. Honestly, I believe that all our biggest enemy is our selves. Being exposed to the things in life which are abrasive to us, mentally or physically has its place in the unveiling of our true selves.

(will continue...)

[J.S.T.]

Sorry, my time ran out (I am at a library).

Anyway. I am not trying to persuade you to train in this system, nor am I trying to say anything negative about anyone. All that I know is that his training was VERY HARD when I was there. I learned alot about my self, and others while I was there, alot about human nature.

Before I ramble on (and end up in the "philosophy" thread) I just want to say that we all have our moments of pride, arrogance, suffering and humility. I cannot, despite my "natural" tendencies judge anyone negatively (although I often do (or any school)) based on the same negative traits that we all possess as human beings.

To him, his system is the best. As for the rest of us,if we agree with him or not, we also believe what we belive because we also know it to be true.

You are the best at doing what YOU do. No one can even know what YOU do because it is your very own personal subjective experience.

[kodanjaclay]

John,
Perhaps he is not. Perhaps he simply should re-evaluate his advertising media.

To be honest, and many will not like this, but it seems to me that the most egotistical bunch of people tend to me MA instructors. I think that, and this is purely my opinion, is the result of people emphasizing violence/fighting or sport over the philosophical and healing aspects of the art. It is important to remember that while no art will make you something you intrinsically are not, rhythmic motion does make one's mind more susceptible to suggestion.

In the end, the art is a way to "Do" or Tao, and that will always be a solitary journey. Irrespective of the vehicle that we use, we must each do what we can do.

While I am a master instructor of KMA, I am a student of CMA (Shaolin and Taijiquan). I enjoy learning martial art, and I enjoy seeing different views on the execution of the arts.

[J.S.T.]

I think that judgeing the legitamacy of a martial arts school has alot to do with your own reasons for training.
If someone is interested in learning a traditional or family style of MA, then, yes, I think that they should put forth the effort in discerning the lineage of whatever schools they are considering.
If they are interested in MA for a hobby or just something to do, then perhaps they should just shop around to see where they feel most comfortable.
The question of "realistic self defense" is one that rattles everyones cage.
I believe that most people who train with this point of view, especially if they have trained for very long, "know" that whatever thy are practicing is the real deal. Among this sect there seems to be (at least)two types of practitioner/teacher:
One type whose defense or proof of their effective techniques can only be displayed "on the mat" or "in the ring" or even "in the street"(naturally).
The other walks away from any significant challenge in the name of humility and virtue.
What is my point?
I think that you can learn real effective combat for life threatening situations.
Someone can worry about if they are going to be attacked in the street at night, and train like hell to be sure that they are ready for it.
Or they could purchase a firearm.
A person can walk around in their self confidence and glean with self assurance that their style has "direct lineage" from some great teacher.
Either way, "bad instruction" is the problem at hand with illegitamate schools yet even that is relative to your reasons for training.
Master Wang said move this way!
Yes, teacher.
(five years later at different school,same "style"):
Who showed you this way? It is wrong. Master Wang said MOVE THAT WAY!
Yes, teacher.
What does learn from this?
Either martial training is inconsistent and full of contradictions or,
Two different moves and a lot of patience.

"...I enjoy seeing different views on the execution of the arts."

"enlightenment comes when the road to thinking is blocked"

[Kricket Will]

Hey John,
This is Karl, remember me? I trained with Master Safakhoo for several years. I've got a lot of respect for a man who put so much devotion in his teaching and the information he researched and created. Toas kung fu is not T'oa kung fu. They are two different styles.
Before joining Toas Kung Fu I had been in two other styles of martial art. With my experience in Toas I can honestly say I learned a lot about my own challenges in life and what it takes to accomplish it. Toas Kung Fu is unique and effective because Master gave me an explanation for every application's effectiveness.
Having a responsibility to my family made me not be able to continue taking classes. Time to time I stop by the Academy to see the man who taught me to challenge my difficulties in life and look forward to a better life. Let's respect our teacher and the time we shared to learn from him.
I wish you the best.

[sean_stonehart]

Kricket Will... please sign your posts with your full (first, last) name. You agreed to do so when you accepted the Terms of Service for the forum.

You can do this by going to USER CP & then selecting Edit Signature & put it there so you don't have to worry about it from that point forward.

[J.S.T.]

Hi Karl,
I only remember one Karl (Red Top), so I assume it is you.
Perhaps you misunderstood my comments regarding his stlye. I never said that Toas Kung Fu and Kung Fu T'oa were the same thing. In another forum someone had said that there was no such thing as Persian kung fu. I remarked by stating that Kung Fu T'oa is Persian kung fu. I do not really consider Toas to be Persian kung fu, but I do believe that it was influenced by T'oa.
Much Respect to you and Safakhoo!
(will continue...gotta go!)

[Spartan]

.....Many CMA contain Tam Tui in there history, Tam Tui was a Muslim Temple art.....

Fact or hearsay?

[Jeff Burger]

Its fact.
Anyone doing Chang Chuan has Tam Tui in their art. All contemporary Wushu people practice Chang Chuan basics.

Choy Lay Fut, Chin Woo influenced schools, most mantis systems....
Bruce Lee also knew the 12 sets of Tam Tui.

Jeff

[sean_stonehart]

Fact or hearsay?

Fact... Many Northern CMA styles/systems contain all or part of Tan Tui in them. Zha Quan is built in/around/with Tan Tui. Others can include but aren't limited to... Shaolin Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Hua Quan (Flower Character), Hua Quan (China Character), etc... Other systems or schools have incorporated Tan Tui into the base curriculum as Jeff said like Jing Wu, the Nanjing Kuoshou institute (which lots immigrated to Taiwan), etc...

[gveest]

To continue on the thought of lineage...when I considered starting my study of Mantis, I found one school in Indy and visited. I did a lot of research as my knowledge of CMA was next to nil. The style taught at this school has a lineage back to Wong Long. After observing a class session and talking with the sifu, I decided to start. We don't focus on rank like a McDojo will but while testing for proficiency on my first form, I had to know the lineage and who my sifu's instructor was, who his was and so on. I hold that lineage is very important, as has been said, to insure that the teaching has credibility. My sifu also teaches how the techniques we are learning has application in real life situations so there is also the element of practicality as well as theory.

Kodanjaclay-
As my experience with CMA and CMA instructors is limited, I can only speak for my sifu. He is very humble and not a power freak. He had a concern because I am older than he is and that I would have a problem learning from a younger man. I told him that I am there to learn from him (although he has asked my advice on raising up a teenage daughter. My daughter is now 20 and his is about 13 or so). He has the knowledge, experience and the ability to teach what he knows. It would seem that I have been fortunate to find a sifu who has humility and still considers himself a student to his sifu, whom I have also trained with.