"Dojo Busting"

[Paul B]

Do you guys/gals get a lot of this?

It must be an Indiana thing. Usually a couple guys,early-mid 20's,come in and start proclaiming how superior they are,or want to "wrassle" with you.

Usually end up not being tough at all,and sometimes end up being "shown" the door in a not so pleasant manner. What are these people thinking? I don't go to the police station and say "You guys suck! This is how your supposed to catch a criminal!"

I swear this last one just about took the cake. TKD guy,BB...walks in with 2 friends and his girlfriend with a camcorder!!

He wanted to "tape" a "sparring" session to show his buddies at class. What!!?

Lets just say he didn't get the outcome he was hoping for.

I don't get it. It would never occur to me to walk in to another school and act like that! So..how bout it? Does this kind of thing happen to you?

[moogong]

I have had this happen many times. I chalk it up to insecurity on their parts. Usually, one or all of the following happens:

1) They talk trash but refuse to spar.

2) They spar, get their butt handed to them and leave.

3) They spar, get their butt, handed to them, join class and actually learn.

4) They stay in class but eventually leave when they realize will not be the center of attention.

On the whole, they are welcome in the class as long as they are respectful and work hard. My instructor has always told me to watch these folks and get a feel for their temperments before letting them spar the color belts. If their skill level is low and their temper is high, they might do something stupid or damaging if they feel embarrased by their poor performance in a sparring match. That would not be fair for the color belt and is not a risk I am willing to take. I will watch them and they will not progress if they have a bad attitude. I am pretty fair but it is a "my way or the highway" school. I have no problems putting out anybody that might be a danger to others or hinder the productive learning eviroment with petty B.S.

[Webmaster]

I think everyone gets them. Recently, we've gotten BJJ/MMA guys come in and stand there the entire night with his arms crossed. Depending upon the attitude, I will usually be polite and then basically ignore them and teach the class. However, I make sure that we do something that means a big fall or lots of pain that night. If for some reason I do invite them on the mat, I darn well make sure I do that something that hurts a lot!

For the most part, I have found being polite, but making it absolutely clear that I am in charge, and you will not get what you want, which is a chance to "test" their skills, works the best. In my younger days (like before I was broken) I used to have a very harshly worded "death and dismemberment waiver" that I would make them sign before I accepted their "challenge". This waiver was especially graphic in its description of possible consequences and the word "death" was used repeatedly and in bold print. Then I would make it clear to them that I am not going to spar with you for points, randori or roll for submission, but that I considered their "challenge" to be a fight, and not a match. Therefore, ANYTHING goes. Once they realize that I was totally prepared to beat them within an inch of their lives, or beyond, they got the message and left. Takes some acting skills, but surprisingly effective. You just better make sure you are actually prepared to go through with it should your bluff be called.

[Paul B]

"Death and dismemberment waiver" That's great!

Don't get me wrong, I am usually more than nice when they first make their appearence. It's when they are leaning on the wall,talking trash,where my patience ends.

The TKD guy that showed up was put through an extensive "kick defenses" class with all the techniques ending in either big falls or some nice ankle or knee locks.

I can't recall anyone of these people signing up afterwards,though. Too rough?

[Cliff Hargrave]

Some people are just idiots. I used to love it when someone like that walked in during my younger days.

Back before the MMA craze hit, it was the "streetfighter" guys that would come in with a chip on their shoulder. Very few ever want to stick around and spar. They usually have a tag-along friend with them and they spend the class explaining to their friend all the things you are doing "wrong" and how that stuff would never work on them.

It's good they bring a friend though, because the ones that actually did want to "test" themselves after the class needed the friend to help them to the car.

One common thing I found over the years from the "streetfighters" to the now "MMA" guys, none of the cocky dojo walk-ins have ever really trained in anything. They look at some books, the internet, or watch a few UFCs and suddenly think they can fight.

[riku]

Haven't seen such an action in any class here.. However, one of my pet peeves are those folks who cross-train, and being in class of one art start to do/praise/advertise another art .. one serious hazard in training some pre-arranged set.. "Why the ¤%(&&/ you kicked me!!??" "In karate, we always kick in this type situation." "Great. And this is aikido class.."

Riku Ylönen

[TonyU]

Interesting. At the dojo we've never had this problem. But during my younger days I did get friends and acquaintances wanting to test me. Asking me "what would you do if you I attacked you this way?" and come at me with some type of attack. I lost some friends this way.
For those of you who had to deal with with dojo busting, did any of you have any problems with lawsuits or charges being filed?

[Paul B]

Not here. They are usually either embarrassed and leave or indignant(yelling) and still leave most likely a little of both.

How would you explain that one?..."Well...I...uh...just wanted to...uh..He started it!"

I think it's just a completely idiotic thing to do,and very,very disrespectful.

Besides joint locks when applied appropriately,leave no lasting damage,right? jk

[lightninrod]

Depending upon the attitude, I will usually be polite and then basically ignore them and teach the class. However, I make sure that we do something that means a big fall or lots of pain that night. If for some reason I do invite them on the mat, I darn well make sure I do that something that hurts a lot!

I think this is a good tactic. Pain really makes a lesson stick, and such people need to learn a good lesson. If a person can't observe quietly and respectfully, call their bluff and have them sign a waiver to participate in a free, but painful session. If they won't do it, then make them leave. Most of them are all bark and no bite, anyway. They'll most likely leave before they suffer the indignity of showing themselves to be a fool.


Justin Mears

[Forevergrey]

Funnily enough, in 17 years of training I've never experienced this. I've heard of it happening plenty of times, but have never had it happen in any of the places I've trained.

It's pathetic, really. People who are confident with their ability to defend themselves do not go around making silly challenges; There's no need to to "prove yourself" unless you haven't actually proved yourself before. In which case, I can think of so many smarter things to do than take on a highly qualified MA instructor

What I have had happen though (mainly back in highschool, you know how it is), is the typical "Oh, so you do martial arts? Do you reckon you could bash me?" trick. A majority of times saying "I know I can" in a dead calm voice while making eye contact is enough to make them drop their cocky attitude and back off. If not, just make sure you can back up your "I know I can". It never happens now though, one good thing about having lots of tatts, a beard and piercings is the fact that most "normal" people are reluctant to fight you, which is silly really (what difference does the way I look make to the way I fight? No difference at all) but I wont complain. I hate fighting and I really hate hurting people, if the way I look puts your average person off fighting me, it's for the best.

[StanLee]

Matt let get this right, you said you've been training for 17 years and you only 20 now.

So you started at a mere 3 years old. I'm not saying that you didn't, but how can you possibly remember back when you were a toddler if someone came and dojo busted your place of training?

I have been told of stories by my brother (who does shorinji kempo) that the head of France SK, Aosaka sensei, got many of his dojos and students from challanging karate dojos in the 70's.

If David Noble is passing through this thread, please tell us if I'm right.

[Forevergrey]

Matt let get this right, you said you've been training for 17 years and you only 20 now.

So you started at a mere 3 years old. I'm not saying that you didn't, but how can you possibly remember back when you were a toddler if someone came and dojo busted your place of training?

I have been told of stories by my brother (who does shorinji kempo) that the head of France SK, Aosaka sensei, got many of his dojos and students from challanging karate dojos in the 70's.

If David Noble is passing through this thread, please tell us if I'm right.

Roughly 17 years, I'm honestly not even sure whether I was 3 or 4 when I got started (you're right, it's a long time ago). I do have a halfway decent answer though - My dojo training didn't start untill later than that, I was learning off a workmate of my father out of his own free time, not in an actual dojo untill I was a little bit older (about 5 or 6, when I joined his class)

Then again, I can't remember 5 or 6 much better than I can remember 3 or 4, so I probably should've shut up, heh.... I'll rephrase it - If my memory serves me correctly, it has never happened. But since my memory sucks and I couldn't even tell you what I ate for breakfast, that probably doesn't mean alot

[StanLee]

Roughly 17 years, I'm honestly not even sure whether I was 3 or 4 when I got started (you're right, it's a long time ago). I do have a halfway decent answer though - My dojo training didn't start untill later than that, I was learning off a workmate of my father out of his own free time, not in an actual dojo untill I was a little bit older (about 5 or 6, when I joined his class)

Then again, I can't remember 5 or 6 much better than I can remember 3 or 4, so I probably should've shut up, heh.... I'll rephrase it - If my memory serves me correctly, it has never happened. But since my memory sucks and I couldn't even tell you what I ate for breakfast, that probably doesn't mean alot

Ah that's ok, I can't remember anything before the age of 7 and for a few years after that is a blur.

But I can tell you what I had for breakfast. A banana, I remember that because I just put the peel in the bin.

Hang on, or was that yesterday's peel...

[Tripitaka of AA]

As luck would have it....

Hi Stan.

Aosaka Sensei of Shorini Kempo is a fascinating person and is unlikely to be someone you'd ever forget meeting. His aura and demeanour are ... remarkable! As for his randori skills ... words can never do justice. He is quite simply faster, sneakier, and more skilled than anyone I've ever seen, or ever will.

I do not know directly about his experiences of Dojo-Breakers, or of Dojo-breaking... but I have heard the same second-hand accounts that Felix mentioned. He seemed to have used the less PC aspect of Dojo Breaking, to establish a reputation from which to build a core of students to start his career in France, back in the early 70s. He tells the stories, I just never heard them directly.

The Japanese attitude towards the Dojo are different in many ways from how theya re regarded in the West. Despite earnest attempts to duplicate a Japanese approach to Japanese martial art training, there are many layers of cultural understanding that come into play with regards to the concept of "offending Sensei". There is a thread on the E-Budo Shorinji Kempo forum that is currently discussing this (I added a link on that, to this thread for a few comparison examples).