Fighting vs. Art

[Erik]

Here's a follow up on "why do you train" and on the forms/kata thread:

In your training, do you strive for fighting potency or for artistic expression? Which is more important to you?

Mind you, the two are not the same but they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

And may I request, politely and with respect, that nobody argue that there is a causal relationship between art and practicality, that their artistic endeavor teaches them to fight effectively, unless they have experience on the street or in the cage.

My purpose in starting this thread is not to read people argueing, for example, that their Tai Chi is combat effective. Good for health and fitness, granted, of course, but it's not how one ought to train for the UFC.

[Andrew Green]

Main Entry: 2art
Pronunciation: 'ärt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin art-, ars -- more at ARM
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter


Which meaning of the word do you mean?

[Spartan]

Artistic expression of course!! Don't you know we do MA ONLY for chics?? Duh!!

Ever heard of the expression, 'One, for the money. Two, for the show' ? Yeah, we do it for CHICS!!

[Erik]

#4 & #6.

Also art as it relates to doing forms (as an example) as a main part of practice, where artistic impression is more important than fighting an opponent and making them unable to continue fighting.

To me this makes martial arts more akin to, say, gymnastics or ice skating, both impressive diciplenes themselves, than to NHB or street fighting.

Also, chic means stylish or fashionable. I think you mean chicks.

[Spartan]

oh, c'mon.... This is so retarded. Martial arts were invented for one single purpose, ie combat. The objective is to defeat your enemies, NOT to impress them to death with your artistic expression. To argue otherwise is absurd. Today, MA have been watered down to sissy dance, glorified babysitting. So, what else is new?

[Andrew Green]

#4 & #6.

Well that throughs things off, cause you'll find a lot of people mean #1 when they say it is an art.

[Erik]

The objective is to defeat your enemies, NOT to impress them to death with your artistic expression. To argue otherwise is absurd. Today, MA have been watered down to sissy dance....

Ken, that's my point. I feel as you do.

But many find MA useful for their health, to get in touch with their "inner warrior", boost self-esteem in kids, doing forms because they consider that an end in and of itself, sport (Judo & TKD), and other reasons that have little to do with defeating an opponent.

If everyone wanted to fight, there would be more NHB practice going on.

[redqueen290]

I have to go with Andrew on this i mean personally I see kumite as poetry in motion. It's beautifull. Better than any dance i'v ever seen. Well, a fight between skilled MAs that is. Watching a fight with a white belt makes me cringe. But I think theres nothing better than just watching a good sparring session. When both the fighters are at there best.

[Erik]

Because they look pretty or because they are effective? What's more interesting to you?

Real life does not resemble a kung fu movie much at all.

[redqueen290]

not because of how it looks, but because of how it works. Dont you find the psychology (sp?) of a fight interesting?, How you can train your opponents mind to help you? Throw the same combination 5 times and then be able to blast them with something that they werent expecting, or how you can watch there eyes to see what move they are expecting you to throw? So i guess for me its neither the "look" or the effectiveness, mostly the manipulation is what i find interesting.

[Erik]

So i guess for me its neither the "look" or the effectiveness, mostly the manipulation is what i find interesting.

Great answer. This is what I had in mind when starting this thread. Thanks.

[David Craik]

Wow, a big subject. For me, the artistry is the effectiveness. To swipe an idea put into writing by Dave Lowry, this is where we get into the difference between an artist and an artisan.

Like Mr. Lowry, I think of budoka as artisans. An artisan is one who creates something of use, like a potter or a carpenter. When masterfully created, the object is supremely useful..and it is that very genius of design which simultaneously makes it so useful - and so beautiful, in a simple sort of way.

Amish furniture is a fine example. It is usually masterfully and solidly constructed, precisely fitted by hand with no nails or screws being used - all pieces are dowelled together. It will last generations, but while an afficionado of Louis XIV furniture may consider it plain, there is great beauty in its construction, design, the care of it's make, and those very details which also make it so sturdy - like the dowels. It embodies the concepts of shibumi and wabi, though the maker likely didn't know what these terms mean.

I find beauty not neccesarily in the flowery or 'artistic', but in that which is formed with care, long used, effective, and solidly and masterfully made. To me, there is just more beauty in a water jug made by an experienced Appalachian potter than a Ming vase.

[Spartan]

not because of how it looks, but because of how it works. Dont you find the psychology (sp?) of a fight interesting?, How you can train your opponents mind to help you? Throw the same combination 5 times and then be able to blast them with something that they werent expecting, or how you can watch there eyes to see what move they are expecting you to throw? So i guess for me its neither the "look" or the effectiveness, mostly the manipulation is what i find interesting.

This is sparring. A match. This is not combat fighting.

Some people go into MA to find sport and recreation. Some to find a religion or a philosophy of life. And some go into MA to acquire fighting skills.

We all found, or will find, what we look for in MA. While the authentic objective of MA is victory in fighting, we should not impose what each wants to seek in MA onto another person. To each his/her own.

Having said all that, now that I reread your post, it dawns on me that you are referring to 'the excitement of the hunt'--- the games that predators do to their preys. lol

[Cliff Hargrave]

100% fighting.

Art for me is with a charcoal pencil.

[Jerusalem]

for me: Both. I enjoy the artistic flow and expression that can be had with martial arts. I also enjoy learning and training highly effective techniques.
I agree that stark effectivness makes some techniques "beautiful". So I have to say that I am a dedicated fence sitter.

[StanLee]

I think what what David said has to be the explanation for me.

I have seen great kendo matches between hachidan sensei and there were no osu'ing, grunting or excessive pushing. They have a certain grace about their movements and for me, that is both effectiveness and art.

[lightninrod]

For me, fight effectiveness is art. It's personal expression in that everyone's body is at least a little different, and we all have different guiding philosophies of what we choose to incorporate into our practice, so then the resulting differences between people's methods of application is personal expression. And when it becomes personal enough that one can, while in mushin, spontaneously and freely improvise a working defence no matter what attack is presented, and not come out of mushin, then it becomes artistic expression.
Personally, I consider myself a "martial practitioner", and I am trying to learn to be a "martial artist". But I have a long way to go.
As for "artistic kata", it's nice to watch - just like ice skating, gymnastics, etc. This too is artistic expression, but of a different stripe. Obviously, some people enjoy doing this type of practice, but it's not for me.


Justin Mears

[jamesomaxwell]

Props to Erik, a good thread, very thought provoking.

For myself, in my current state of understanding, I strive to better myself by using whichever side of martial arts that is helping me at this point in time. Martial arts has both art and death involved in it. Everyone has the ability to be an artist in something that they are skilled at. Even combat can be considered art of its own self. I've shot competition with rifles for many years and I've seen people that are good at shooting are just as impressive to watch as they tear a target apart as a master painter who is putting paint on a picture. I've been able to look back on confrontations and situations that I've been faced with in the past and I can see a form of art in the way I handled the various situations. I guess I see it as coming down to the fact that the original question by Erik says it best, "Which is more important to you?", because everyone is different so everyone will have a different answer, and no-one is really above anyone else.

[Harlan]

I don't consider it to be a choice between 2 (duality) options (art or fight). It's "the other" aspect (3 battles) that ties it all together.

[nosh276]

There are more definitions, here are the one's I have.

1. To confine, cramp, restrict, limit, in local position or in action.

I. Skill; its display or application. Sing. art (abstractly); no plural.

1. gen. Skill in doing anything as the result of knowledge and practice.
4. spec. Skill in applying the principles of a special science; technical or professional skill. Obs.
II. Anything wherein skill may be attained or displayed. Sing. an art; pl. arts.
8. A practical application of any science; a body or system of rules serving to facilitate the carrying out of certain principles. In this sense often contrasted with science.
9. a. esp. An industrial pursuit or employment of a skilled nature; a craft, business, profession.




I do it mainly for the art, but also some for the self defence.