a jkd/bruce lee observation

[J4d3]

i was watching a video on jkd and bruce lee was interviewed with in it.he says he doesn't believe in styles because with styles people are seperated.and the founders ideas become the gospel truth.i couldn't help but feel the irony as he was saying this because at least in some schools jkd is taught as a specific style like karate and bruce lee's word is considered the gospel by some and at least his words carry some weight with a lot of martial artists.i just thought it was interesting.any comments?

[Spartan]

What you need to learn is how to strike hard and fast, and how to intercept (ie to land first). Everything else is BS with a 3 letter label on it.

[Bad Karma]

Bruce said specific words and applied specific "methods" to JKD. How in the world are you expected to train JKD without being taught the funadmental structure? How are you to train and apply the tools of JKD that are supported by that structure? The questions go on and on...

Judo's philosophy is to have maximum efficiency and minimum effort. Jigaro Kano said this and yet we always see red faced judoka on the mats - hmmm Maybe those red faced judoka don't get it, either?

Have you ever seen someone who claims to be martial art trained in such and such system, you watch them demonstrate, and you immediately realize from their demonstration they have no clue? This is how I feel when I see and hear the JKD philosophy being used without the JKD fundamentals employed.

Is boxing a system/style? Is fencing? What form of combat isn't? How the heck could it be taught to other people if they weren't? You gotta start somewhere with something to work with before you are able to do your own thing and still be effective with it. So, IMHO, JKD is a system with a philosophy that directs it.

Peace

[Spartan]

By his own words, he didn't create a new style nor did he created Bruce Lee's method of fighting. By his own words, JKD does not take a systematic approach to fighting but rather a systematic approach to training.

So, why are people teaching JKD style/method/system of fighting then? The answer is obvious.

[Bad Karma]

Obviously not. How can so many have cause for debate if were obvious? What is the obvious answer?

JKD is more than just a systematic approach to training. A systematic approach to training...for what? Health? Flexibility? Strength? What?

Heck, most can't even agree if JKD should be considered a Chinese art or an American art!

Peace

[Spartan]

Bruce Lee himself stated that JKD does not take a systematic approach to fighting, but it does take a systematic approach to training. Bruce himself stated that he did not invented any new style nor anything like Bruce Lee's method of fighting. These are his own words. If you want to insist it ain't so then you are just making things up and sticking them into Bruce Lee's mouth.

So let me ask again. Why are people insist on teaching "Bruce Lee's fighting method" (labelled as JKD or JunFan JKD or whatever)? Where did this come from if Bruce Lee wrote that he DID NOT create this? It isn't me saying this. It is Bruce Lee's own words.

The obvious answer is just as Bruce Lee himself stated, there is really no JKD. People are teaching what they think is JKD. Some people teach what Bruce used to teach when he was running his Junfan Gungfu schools, a mixed bag of half-baked WC and other Chinese kungfu. Some people teach what Bruce Lee taught in private lessons, which was never anything like a standard curriculum. He just made things up as he went along, adding and subtracting, while holding back his personal training methods. . (Have you seen any of his home video of his private lessons? What a joke! Its garbage. He was taking money from those numb nuts and then pampering them with BS. 'I like your kick. Did you see that? Yes. You have this natural flow! Very good. One more. Yes. But I like the second one better. Yes. Kick a bit higher. Now. Pull back faster. Oh baby! I love that kick. That's a good kick.' ) His privates students are teaching different versions of JKD, if you can call it that. Bruce didn't teach them to be like Bruce. ("Why should I teach people so they can beat me?" . His own words.) Bruce taught them what he claimed to be best for them to explore their uniqueness. Right!!!!!

Bruce Lee was never interested in teaching nor creating this so called JKD. His objective as he wrote down, was to make a ton of money and be famous ASAP. JKD is a brilliant marketing label. He packaged his western sport training methods, his personal martial philosophy (which is a combination of borrowed ideas and his half baked attempt at new age Taoism), his obssesively honed superb athletic skills, and added a pretty cool label JEET KUNE DO! He rolled it out onto the screen and was an instant HIT! This should be a text book case study in all MBA marketing courses!


Bruce's true contribution is in his approach to training for MA- the systematic approach to training. He was able to apply his philosophy which is deeply influenced by Krishnamurti. Krishnamurti proposed that one must be a light onto oneself and not to depend on the light of other leaders or gurus. Krishnamurti also proposed that in order to get to the truth, you must be free from tradition and be free from all fear. Bruce at least put that to work and adopted western training methods, non-CMAs and he was able to gain superior speed, power and timing skills. He made it work : a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick. He learnt how to train to be faster and to hit harder, and to time his intercept sooner. The western world has managed to learn how to achieve these performance via separate routes.

People are going to continue to make money teaching what they call JKD. And people are going to pay money to learn Bruce Lee's fighting method. Nothing is going to change that.

I am getting pretty sick of people turning a blind eye to Bruce lee's own words and making things up and then attributing them to Bruce, eventhough it is obvious that those things run counter to Bruce's own words. I am speaking in general here and not directing this at anyone.

I am done talking about JKD. If my analysis is of some use to others, fine. If not, who the hell cares?

[Bad Karma]

The Art & Philosophy of Jeet Kune Do

With Wing Chun at the core of his system, Bruce Lee incorporated a modification of various techniques from Northern Praying Mantis, Southern Praying Mantis, Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, Western Boxing, Wrestling, Fencing, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and some of the more refined kicks of the Northern & Southern Chinese styles. Innovative and radically ahead of his time in his training and teaching methodology, Bruce Lee developed a martial system and fighting strategy that has lost none of its effectiveness over time.

- Dan Inosanto Academy

Are you aware that core wing chun techniques were taught in order to bring out the student's expression? Most everyone Bruce taught had some MA background. The meaning of everything Bruce said that you bring up has a deeper understanding to it. You must also consider what was going on with the martial arts at the time he was alive. He loved philosophy and his words are not so black and white. Of course, when it comes to applied philosophy, what is?

Again, how can JKD be taught without providing something to base from? Philosophy or not, how did Bruce express JKD? He used what and taught what? He didn't create it, true. This is because there's not one single technique you can't find elsewhere. He didn't create the technique, but he taught the expression of it, right? You must be shown the one-two combination before you can use it. You can't effectively use the one-two combination until you become comfortable and confident with it. Then, and only then, are you able to execute without thinking or forcing it. Viola! You've just expressed yourself. I think he mentioned a kick or punch is just that and then it becomes more than that and then it becomes just that. The cycle is not new and he didn't invent or create it. Yes. I have a copy of his 8mm film that shows his backyard training and private student James (somebody with a 'C' as 1st letter of last name - can't think of it right now) w/voice over. I am aware Bruce deliberately kept "secrets" from students but those "secrets" are well known elsewhere.

It's funny that people debate the very thing Bruce, himself, had a hard time explaining. I wonder why that is/was? Is it so great and profound of an understanding that words can't explain it? Bruce claimed to have not invented something like Bruce Lee's method of fighting..then I ask how do you define his "expression?"

Peace

[Spartan]

His "expression" is just that his expression, ie the product of his training, conditioning. It is no different from your expression, ie what you do with your martial art skills. Would you call that Bad Karma's Method of Fighting? I suppose you could. But is it a new style, new creation? NO. Everybody has his/her own "expression" of his/her own martial art skills. Is your left jab anything extraordinary? Is my right front kick anything extraordinary? No. But they are our expression of our martail art skills.

We can find a fancy label, stick on it and, if we are good, we can market it the sameway JKD has been marketed.

Doesn' the fact that after all these years, NO ONE, not even his own students can agree on what JKD is or should be, tell you that there is REALLY NO SUCH THING? What more proof do you want? Why can't they agree? B/c there is really nothing to be agreed on about.

"How can JKD be taught?" Doesn't the fact that everyone is teaching what he thinks JKD is or should be, tell you there is really no such thing as JKD? People are simply copying bits and pieces of what Bruce Lee did. Bruce Lee did different things at different times of his life. Bruce taught different things to different students.

You got 2 major camps who tried their very best to divy up the bits and pieces of what Bruce did: OJKD and JKDC. One camp thinks his technique is the essence of JKD. The other camp think his concepts and philosophy is the essence of JKD and one should build one's skills using these concepts and philosophy as guidelines. But in practice, no one is a purist (may be with the exception of the real hardcore OJKD).

If you look around, you see OJKD technique in many other arts, which shouldn't be surprising as Bruce probably copied and stole them in the first place. Furthermore there are only so many ways you can punch and kick. (Except for the TKD people who have thousands upon thousands of hair spliting technique). Every art has its "simple, direct and economy" technique.

The concepts and philosophy enshrined in JKDC is widely ingrained in every practical pursuit.

So if a TKD guy threw a front kick and intercepted my lunging left punch, is he now a OJKD guy performing the "way of the interception"?

The MMA guy practicing technique that bounds by no style. So is he a JKDC guy now?

[Bad Karma]

The MMA guy practicing technique that bounds by no style. So is he a JKDC guy now?

Oh, yeah! That's what I'm talking about. That's the ticket, right there. You just hit me with the question I ask those in MMA - LOL! It's a good enough question to cause and stir up some sheet when the boards get slow.

I can't help but think of Andrew Green's article What is Mixed Martial Arts? <linked> in the Mixed Martial Art forum. Starts off sounding very familiar, doesn't it? Isn't a style with no style still a style? Oddly enough, MMA teaches core techniques and to build upon that is who's doing the teaching? If you've been taught a leg kick from Muay Thai, wouldn't that be a Muay Thai leg kick that you use? If you were taught how to throw punches by a boxing coach, wouldn't that be a boxer's punch that you use? If you were taught to hip ride from wrestling, wouldn't that be a wrestler's hip ride that you use? If these things were taught to you and you use them, when would they become your expression? Not to be confused with skill (level), mind you. Better question might be if you were a boxer and and then got started in MMA, would you be learning gappling to grapple or learning grappling to box? I think it provides a twist worth thinking about. I think it was Einstein who said, "It's all relative."

Besides, I thought you said you were threw talking about JKD!? Why'd you have to go and get me thinking again?

Peace

[Bad Karma]

Einstein may have said it was all relative, but I'm reminded of what my friend in legal always says, "It's all semantics."

Peace

[Spartan]

To muddy it further, allow me to add another example. In MuayThai, kicks are thrown with the hip and trunk as the powersource. That gives them rib breaking power. If I throw my kicks that way, would that make me a MuayThai guy or a JKD guy or a MMA guy?

Your friend is right. It's all semantics!!! lol

Happy Christmas to everyone!

[J4d3]

i thank you both for that debate i enjoyed reading it thoroughly and many great points were made.

[ezzthetic]

Hmm... all this is very good. But as Krishnamurti said, as soon as you give something a name, define it, you are limiting it. Keep in mind that there is a reason that Bruce Lee never finished anything he wrote on JKD. He realized that this would give oppurtunity for misunderstanding. Bruce always regretted giving it a name. "Don't fuss over it," he said. People did, and still do.

JKD has nothing to do with any specific fighting skill. It is merely the idea of individualization. Of course Bruce Lee had his own individual expression of fighting skill. This fighting skill is not JKD. That's just Bruce Lee. Of course he would teach people stuff from his own repertoire, wherever acquired previously. But you can have a foundation in almost ANYTHING and still train JKD. Obviously, you'll need something to express yourself WITH. Dan Inosanto teaches a lot of his own personal style, which is why JKD has a lot of Kali. Once you grasp the idea, you should research and discover your own style. Of course any teacher will teach you what he knows about fighting, but using the term JKD as a hat over everything that you are taught by such an instructor is really wrong. Whatever fighting skills the teacher gives you are simply examples of free thought. They are tools to be discarded once the idea settles in. This is one of the reasons Bruce preferred working with fighters already skilled in some style or another.

JKD is simply dissolving any boundaries. Freedom is not only the ability to do what you want, but also to choose to do what you do NOT want.

Oh and regarding Bruce's personal aims of becoming rich and famous ASAP: Bruce made such affirmations regularly... but that had nothing to do with JKD... not because someone put them in a "his" book posthumously.

[Spartan]

...Oh and regarding Bruce's personal aims of becoming rich and famous ASAP: Bruce made such affirmations regularly... but that had nothing to do with JKD... not because someone put them in a "his" book posthumously.

No body said it has anything to do with JKD.

As for the rest of your post, well, that is basically what I have said.

[ezzthetic]

Right you are, sir!

... and added a pretty cool label JEET KUNE DO!

That's what set me off right there though. I read it in another light the second time around.

[Bad Karma]

All this foundation talk would have me to believe that no matter your foundation, you can find yourself practicing JKD? I don't think so. You can have your foundation in any art, but once you leave it, it's no longer your foundation. JKD never really left the WC foundation and what he trained and showed other fighters was from a WC foundation. So, in answer to another point about a kick delivered as a MT kick making you a MT fighter...it would make you a MT kicker and no longer a TKD kicker or Karate kicker or Savate kicker or whatever. You are a MT kicker regardless of your foundation.

I still think JKD is a system because he taught forms and drills (sil lim tao and chi sao, in particular). It is far more than a philosophical dissolving of any boundaries. Bruce Lee Fighting Method Vol's 1 - 4 may well be a start regarding books he finished about JKD. The Tao of Chineses Gung Fu is also another good reference that he wrote to read and compare where he was and where he ended.

Peace

[ezzthetic]

The Tao of Chineses Gung Fu is also another good reference that he wrote to read and compare where he was and where he ended.

Well that's just it. He never ended anything. Nothing was complete... he never finished those later works for a reason. He was still coming to terms with how to present JKD.

[Bad Karma]

Well...he started those five books I've mentioned and he also finished them. The other books were not started by him but they were compiled together from scattered notes after his death. John little has done an excellent job at putting those notes together and making them available for us to read. I especially liked The Art of Expressing The Human Body and Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

It is well known that Bruce had a difficult time explaining JKD because it's VERY trying to define a philosophical thought brought forth and expressed in action. All that stuff about what JKD was not supposed to be was slowly becoming just that by default. How could it not and still be structured?

Peace

[Spartan]

The information in The Art of Expressing The Human Body was good at his time. Our knowledge in how the human body responds and adapts to training and conditioning, has come a long way since then.

The book talks about how and what he did to train. Which is rather interesting b/c few martial artists were doing what he was doing. Even today, most still don't. But it does not explain the rationale behind it. You would have to acquire the scientific knowledge behind it, somewhere else, if you need to. I wouldn't just copy something without understanding the logic and reason behind it. (Oh well, sometimes I do. But there is really no excuse for that.)

[Bad Karma]

LOL! You're mental, Kenneth!

I thought it interesting to see his gym card that he wasn't that strong or that fast of a runner. Yet, he could jack a much larger person with no problems. I know this reflects his use and knowledge of what I call bio-mechanics, but it's interesting. I've been in search of a book(s) (modern) that addresses the combination of weights and body weight exercises with routines to check out. Haven't had any good recommendations but I'm always looking. It would be a bonus if the book also addressed the structure used by Bruce and explained it. That sinking of the shoulder tied into the rest of the body alignment is really strong but I can't explain why or how and only feel it statically. Sucks!

Peace